Lip on middle drum

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Myxr6turbo
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Lip on middle drum

Post by Myxr6turbo » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:43 am

Just pulled the transmission out and noticed the middle drum has a lip. All the photos and videos I've seen have a flat surface. Any ideas? Someone made a reverse drum work instead?
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speedytinc
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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by speedytinc » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:32 am

Not likely. Wear. May have had a real hard lining @ one time, like modern automatic transmission or a narrow non contacting lining area. Not uncommon.

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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Tim Rogers » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:48 am

Probably due to a kevlar band.

drum.jpg
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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:07 am

Long wear, or overtight bands. Probably long wear. Is there a recommended minimum diameter for drums?


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:15 am

It is possible that someone has turned the low drum and thought it was a good idea to leave that lip. Actually it is not good to turn the drums. Better to replace with a better one. They are already fragile and the low gets the most wear.
The picture by Tim showing the cracked drum is not caused by using Kevlar, but it is caused by improper use of Kevlar. If you have a lot of trouble with the low band wearing out and needing frequent adjustment is either caused by slipping the clutch as one might do with a modern stick shift. You must have the engine running just fast enough to prevent stalling and then push the pedal down hard and give it some gas so the band does not slip.
Another cause of cracked drum is a worn out notch and cam. When you push in the low pedal the band should be compressed tight and not slip. With it in neutral and with the parking brake on, the band should not drag. When the notch and cam are worn you must adjust the low band too tight in order to get it to compress with the pedal above the floorboard. In order to do that the band drags in neutral. If you loosen the adjustment the band does not drag in neutral, but it slips when in low. That will wear out any type of band but with Kevlar it will overheat the drum.
I would suggest you purchase the book on "Transmission" if you don't already have one and follow the instructions.
Good Luck,
Norm


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by speedytinc » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:33 am

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:07 am
Long wear, or overtight bands. Probably long wear. Is there a recommended minimum diameter for drums?
.010-.015 per side from the standard of 7.500" is usually safe. Depends one how centered it was originally. One edge can get thin fast, & thats the weak spot for the crack. Resurface to 80-90% is preferred over excessive cutting. Its a common sense balancing act.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Dan Hatch » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:00 am

How about someone put a reverse drum on a low drum hub?


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by speedytinc » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:09 am

Dan Hatch wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:00 am
How about someone put a reverse drum on a low drum hub?
Dont see how or why. Reverse drum hub is the largest. Would need to adapt it smaller to start & you would be putting the most crack prone drum into max service. That could be debatable, but, I believe the smaller surface area in the webs dosent allow for as good a cooling effect.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Dan Hatch » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:15 am

Just a swag, have seen crazier things done to keep a T going.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Allan » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:37 am

Have you measured the diameter of the 'lip' and the unworn side of the drum? If they are around the same, you have a nasty worn groove in the drum, the cause of which is something on which others may like to speculate.

Allan from down under.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Myxr6turbo » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:44 am

I'll measure it in the morning. What could cause the drum to wear uneven if that is the case?

Here is a photo of the low drive band. Looks like the lining has been replaced. Not what with though.
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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Allan » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:33 pm

Shawn, if you look closely at that lining you will see that it has not been engaging the drum where it is worn, indicating that the drum was gouged before that lining was fitted. I cannot imagine how the gouging was done. Usually it is due to the rivets in the linings, but it is then fairly well certred on the drum.

Allan from down under.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Myxr6turbo » Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:15 pm

Are the bands still usable and what material are the bands?

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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:09 pm

Those linings appear to be later production Scandinavia as the weave is "square" - the proper rivet technique is that they should be spread across the lining - not in line.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Myxr6turbo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:00 am

Should I get new pins?


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Sheri » Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:05 am

To suggest that a kevlar band would cause that crack or excessive wear is misleading and not accurate. I have taken apart many engines with this same drum failure that never saw a modern band lining. It happened with cotton back then, and it (cracks)can happen now regardless of band material. The excessive wear on the op picture is not unheard of either. It is just excessive wear from linings that were not making contact evenly across the drum surface.

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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Tim Rogers » Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:53 am

To infer that kevalar cannot cause wear or damage a drum is highly inaccurate information...
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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:25 am

From the picture posted of the cracked drum, you will also notice the blue darkened color. This happens from overheating the drum. The overheating also causes expansion and the drum cracks. When the band is loose, oil fills the space between the lining and the drum and lubricates things as it also cools the drum. The blue is caused by the band dragging on the drum and overheating. There are two causes for this dragging. One is slipping when in low. This happens either from not pushing the pedal all the way down and slipping into gear as one might do with a modern stick shift. Or it can be caused because the band does not fit tight when the low is pushed down. This happens either from band needing adjustment or from the pedal bent so it hits the floorboard before the band is tight or because the cam and notch are worn out.
Either of the last two conditions will cause one to adjust the band too tight so that the low gear holds the band tight when you push the pedal. When it is tight enough to work in low, the band drags in neutral even with the parking brake on. This latter condition will quickly overheat the drum. With kevlar, it will not wear as fast but the band will continue to drag. With cotton or wood bands, the bands will wear out fast and need frequent adjustment. Either condition will eventually crack the drum.
I am not sure what caused the lip on the drum. It could be caused by machining the drum, or adapting a reverse drum, or possibly by wear against a band because of a flaw on the band.
Norm


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:21 pm

Tim

no one inferred that...

you have found your post for the year, and tried to maneuver it around to Kevlar by hook or by crook

nice try
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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:25 pm

Tim Rogers wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:53 am
To infer that kevalar cannot cause wear or damage a drum is highly inaccurate information...
Kevlar can't do a darned thing, unless it's used improperly. More correct to say, "Improper use of Kevlar can cause wear or damage." But then, improper use of anything can cause wear or damage... ;)


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:33 pm

As for the grooved drum. It may not necessarily be unuseable, although it looks kinda bad. How deep is the groove? If the band lining can't conform to the distorted profile of the drum, and it touches only on the high spots, it can generate heat in those concentrated areas of contact. The "hot spots" might then be where cracks could originate. However, it's a low drum and not a brake drum, so it wouldn't see anywhere near the heat of the latter. Especially if driven correctly, with minimum slippage of the band.

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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Tim Rogers » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:31 pm

Jerry,

I agree with you- kevlar can cause wear or damage and there are plenty of posts to document its negative affects. It would be pretty impressive If the condition of the OP's drum is due to prolonged wear- one tough drum!
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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:45 pm

You can ruin a drum with any kind of lining available.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by speedytinc » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:32 pm

Another possibility for the wear. A ways back, there was a batch of clutch drum shoes that were bent off grain. They split apart @ the 90 degree bends.
One of those steel shoe pieces could do some effective drum machining if stuck in the band. The one I had with this failure didnt get to the drums, But did make for inconsistent clutch lock ups & a "what the heck is this chunk in my oil?"
OP might find a shoe or 2 missing in that drum when he removes the output plate.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Adam » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:04 pm

Nobody’s got it so far...


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by speedytinc » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:43 pm

Adam wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:04 pm
Nobody’s got it so far...
Are you implying long running shifted drums from a loose clutch hub or driven gear?
I do see a lot of wear on the reverse drum flange.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:43 pm

If we're guessing, I'd guess that before the lining was changed, the steel band was planing material off of the drum due to the band worn back or improperly riveted on in the first place. Certainly not the first time I've seen this, particularly if the bushing is shot, too, but that is a very rare occurrence. Bands shaving drums...that's not at all rare.
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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Allan » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:04 pm

Tim, you are not agreeing with Jerry. He said it was IMPROPER USE which can cause the damage, not kevlar which caused it. You are still banging on bout kevlar being the cause. Properly adjusted and properly used, kevlar is far longer lasting and far more forgiving under the feet of inexperienced drivers.

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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Erik Barrett » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:11 am

Kevlar does not damage low drums. There are two things that definitely do. One of them is not knowing how to drive a model T. If you are going to use low or reverse, do it like you mean it. Lock that band down and don’t let it slip. Same with the high clutch. Neither was meant to be slipped but engaged smartly and locked up. The problem with Kevlar if there is any is that it is so durable that it will survive driver ineptitude so long that the drums get roasted and break. Original style linings fail long before that.
The other thing that kills low drums is worn out low notches and pedal supports. These are the cam devices that clamp the band around the drum when you push the pedal. When they are worn out the pedal hits the floorboards before the band takes hold. This forces you to take up the band adjustment real tight so low will work. This results in the band dragging when it is no being used, overheating the drum and leading to grief.

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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Tim Rogers » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:17 am

Erik,

Well said and accurate- "The problem with Kevlar if there is any is that it is so durable that it will survive driver ineptitude so long that the drums get roasted and break. Original style linings fail long before that."

T transmission drums were not designed to have a material like kevlar applied to them- cotton is way more forgiving. When it comes to kevlar linings, lot's of folks equate "infrequent replacement" with "good for my T" despite the damage they can cause. The use of non OE bands would not be an issue and potentially harmful If every Model T in existence was driven 100% correctly 100% of the time, but we all know that is not reality.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I believe it's based on some facts and science. :)
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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Sheri » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:05 am

Well said Erik Barrett. Thirty years and over 50k miles on kevlar linings in my 15 touring (including new York to Seattle 2009) has proven to me that they do not effect drums in any adverse way. I have also driven cars with raybestos and wood linings and found chattering to be an issue. The fact is that drums are sometimes so thin on one side due to core shifting during manufacture that they are doomed from the start and cant be static balanced either. Those are the ones that are going to crack if they haven't already. While it is certainly true that improper break in adjustment with kevlar can lead to drum failure (i have seen that too) this is a failure of the mechanic, not the material. If properly installed and adjusted kevlar bands quickly settle in and i have driven my cars for years without needing to adjust the bands at all. I have installed them on at least fifty cars for customers over the years without complaint. Cotton is fine for cars that see little use, but had I installed that in customer cars it would have been 100 sets of linings, or more since they wear out pretty quickly with inexperienced drivers.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by Erik Barrett » Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:19 am

Thanks for the support guys. I should have been a little more tactful in my posting I think. It’s not helpful to imply people are inept because drums break in their cars. It’s a matter of practice and experience learning how to operate and get the most out of a model T reliably. My mission in this hobby is to give everyone I encounter, whether on the road or online, the best possible experience with their cars.


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Re: Lip on middle drum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:43 am

Clutches and clutch bands are not to be used like brakes. They are not designed to handle high heat from extended slippage. Good drivers will also minimize use of brakes.

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