1915 Firewall drawing?
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1915 Firewall drawing?
I want a new firewall for my 1915 runabout, but I don't love the idea of buying it for $120+. I could use the old one for a pattern, but it's not original, and I don't fully trust that it's correct. I've looked through the Cimorelli collection and found drawings for 1912 and 1919, but didn't see any for 1915-1916. Anybody know of a source?
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
I had an original that I copied, the PO had braced the tongue and groove with a metal strap horizontally across the center. I made this sample however to be original I made a second unit with out the strap. I cut the pieces to match the original, I don't believe they were glued just sheeted with 1/8" cherry veneer, glued horizontally on the tongue and groove pieces. I think the reason for the tongue and groove was so that it could flex I don't think that plywood would offer much flex. The pieces are an odd thickness and require planning to fit.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
The strap across the center with the 6 holes should not be there, I remade a second one with out that strap and holes.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
John Regan is an expert when it comes to firewalls.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
Have you priced birch plywood lately? Can you buy a partial sheet ? Any idea how long to lay it out ( correctly) cut it out well? Spend the $120+ , keep the suppliers and craftsman supplying the suppliers busy and in business. JMHO
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
I got the firewall for our 15 runabout from Snyder's and it was very good quality
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
... keep the suppliers and craftsman supplying the suppliers busy and in business.
That's a good point, and it's why I buy parts from several of the dealers, not just one. But in this particular case, the finished product plus shipping is likely to run about $150, while a piece of 3/4" birch ply costs about $30 and I have the necessary tools. IF I can find the proper pattern, perhaps that $120 difference would be better spent on parts I can't make. My meager pension encourages my natural inclination toward thrift.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
John Regan gave several good reasons why Baltic Birch thin-ply plywood is the best choice for a firewall. I had to go to a specialty wood supplier to get my 4 x 4 foot piece. I agree with other posters that buying one made by a craftsman who specializes in such things might be the most satisfactory solution in the long run.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
Steve,
I have been looking for many years now for the 1915-16 firewall drawing. I'm sure it does exist at the Benson Ford Archives and it would answer your questions.
I also looked for my several postings on the 1915 firewall that I have saved over the years. They are somewhere on the computer -- but I haven't found out where. There is also a slim chance that when I moved the files from the old computer to the new computer a long time ago -- those files didn't make it for some reason.
Below is one posting from: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1321575201 made by John Regan with relevant comments for your 1915. (Thank you John for all you research you have done for so many years as well as the excellent parts and service you provided!)
By John F. Regan on Thursday, November 17, 2011 - 08:02 pm:
The firewall changed from 3/4 thick to 11/16 during the 1915 model year. The earliest 1915 dash was 3/4 thick but rabbeted to a thickness of 11/16 for a distance of 3/8" around the perimeter to thus accept the metal 1915 style hoodformer which basically wrapped the outer perimeter of the front surface. Slightly later the design changed to just make the entire dash out of 11/16 thick material and it remained that thickness until the metal dash replaced the wood dash about March or so of 1923.
See also: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/9016.html addresses a better grade of plywood that doesn't compress as easily as some of the other plywood plus some other info.
For David,
If you have a chance, could you add some dimensions to the photo you posted of your 1st 1915-16 firewall? Yes, agree the strap was not original. But you made it from an original so It could at least give us a place to start working from. While I don't think the Benson Ford will sell us/send us a digital scan that we can ethically share with everyone (maybe that can be purchased? in addition to personal use?) But I think we can purchase a copy and use it to add the proper dimensions to that photo or our own drawing. John Regan did an excellent drawing of the 1909-1913 or so T frames (including where to locate the running board brackets that moved on the torpedo roadster and runabout). I'm sure he followed all the proper procedures and that a group of us could do something similar.
Side note -- I suspect the random width boards were originally glued. If I can locate my saved postings I believe that was addressed in more detail. Below is a later black radiator firewall showing how they are gluing the wood boards together before any veneer is added. Originally posted by Dan Treace back on Nov 21, 2014 (thanks Dan). I didn't find the discussion only the photo. But in the discussion I think they had more to say about what year range and also what type of veneer (I think it was a cheaper than cheery....but that was almost 7 years ago.)
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
I have been looking for many years now for the 1915-16 firewall drawing. I'm sure it does exist at the Benson Ford Archives and it would answer your questions.
I also looked for my several postings on the 1915 firewall that I have saved over the years. They are somewhere on the computer -- but I haven't found out where. There is also a slim chance that when I moved the files from the old computer to the new computer a long time ago -- those files didn't make it for some reason.
Below is one posting from: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1321575201 made by John Regan with relevant comments for your 1915. (Thank you John for all you research you have done for so many years as well as the excellent parts and service you provided!)
By John F. Regan on Thursday, November 17, 2011 - 08:02 pm:
The firewall changed from 3/4 thick to 11/16 during the 1915 model year. The earliest 1915 dash was 3/4 thick but rabbeted to a thickness of 11/16 for a distance of 3/8" around the perimeter to thus accept the metal 1915 style hoodformer which basically wrapped the outer perimeter of the front surface. Slightly later the design changed to just make the entire dash out of 11/16 thick material and it remained that thickness until the metal dash replaced the wood dash about March or so of 1923.
See also: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/9016.html addresses a better grade of plywood that doesn't compress as easily as some of the other plywood plus some other info.
For David,
If you have a chance, could you add some dimensions to the photo you posted of your 1st 1915-16 firewall? Yes, agree the strap was not original. But you made it from an original so It could at least give us a place to start working from. While I don't think the Benson Ford will sell us/send us a digital scan that we can ethically share with everyone (maybe that can be purchased? in addition to personal use?) But I think we can purchase a copy and use it to add the proper dimensions to that photo or our own drawing. John Regan did an excellent drawing of the 1909-1913 or so T frames (including where to locate the running board brackets that moved on the torpedo roadster and runabout). I'm sure he followed all the proper procedures and that a group of us could do something similar.
Side note -- I suspect the random width boards were originally glued. If I can locate my saved postings I believe that was addressed in more detail. Below is a later black radiator firewall showing how they are gluing the wood boards together before any veneer is added. Originally posted by Dan Treace back on Nov 21, 2014 (thanks Dan). I didn't find the discussion only the photo. But in the discussion I think they had more to say about what year range and also what type of veneer (I think it was a cheaper than cheery....but that was almost 7 years ago.)
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
I suggest contacting Ray Wells in San Diego. His website is "the Craftsman" I have had him do a couple of Bodies and his prices are most reasonable. He has a price list and I think he shows firewalls.
just sayin'
brasscarguy
just sayin'
brasscarguy
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
Happened to visit a big box store last night, and the current birch plywood is horrendous looking stuff. Perhaps visiting a large volume kitchen cabinet shop would harvest a small piece of baltic birch plywood at a reasonable cost.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
The original material of a Model T wood firewall was not like today's ply-wood. It was made of tongue & grooved boards with a veneer face, front and back. Not sure what year firewall I have (1919-22?) - need some dimensions (height & width). Its available for blueprinting.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
If someone is that anal to make a self destructive wood firewall, have at it. Kudos! I have one on my model F. I think the ‘15 firewall is painted , so not sure the construction of the plywood matters, but may to some. Modern birch plywood has a paper thin veneer, and small knots everywhere. At least Baltic birch gives you a thick veneer layers. If someone wants to look in the holes, shoo them away! JMHO
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
Baltic birch is what you want. Many plies, very solid and dense. Not that pretty but gets painted black anyway. It is usually sold in 60" x 60' pieces, and the "3/4" inch sheets are sometimes close to 11/16" thick. The plies are thick enough so you can reduce the thickness a. little with a wide belt sander if you have to. Don't waste your time using plywood from Home Depot.It would be best to have an original firewall or the factory drawing handy before attempting to make one. The outer edge needs to be shaped correctly in order for it to fit into the steel hood former well.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
Thank you for the inputs. I don't think Steve is looking to build a 1915 dash exactly the same way as they were originally made. Note he mentioned the birch plywood. He, me and others in the past have looked for a good representative drawing for a 1915-16 dash. Note John Regan when we was producing those "show quality" dashes actually incorporated the changes to the dash over the 1915-1915 model year. For a show car that is important.
For a driver a dash that will provide solid support for the steering column over time and that will look good with the holes very close to the originals would be fine for many of us. I think that is what Steve is looking for. I.e. a layout for a 1915-16 dash.
Note -- Jim Cook actually took his 1916 dash that had delaminated and the wood boards had all become loose and he cleaned it up, re-glued it (waterproof glue) and refinished it. He left it a natural look because it had come out so nice. It was missing the veneer face -- but looked so nice he couldn't bring himself to paint it black. But the old boards if solid and not warped can be reused -- or at least it worked well for him. (Note his car had been in the same family since new.) Below is a partial shot of his dash - (thanks Jim).
I did find where my notes were filed. No dimensions or drawing which is what we are hoping to be able to put together from the discussion. I have to get up early so I'm closing down for the night.
And yes, if we take the dimensions off an original firewall it has likely shrunk some as it dried out more? But if we can at least get those dimensions we should be able to make them better with a visit to the Benson Ford Archives and/or purchasing a copy of the 1915-16 firewall print.
And yes, while we are capturing items -- getting the 1917-1923 wood dash might also make sense?
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off.
Again thanks to those who have posted.
For a driver a dash that will provide solid support for the steering column over time and that will look good with the holes very close to the originals would be fine for many of us. I think that is what Steve is looking for. I.e. a layout for a 1915-16 dash.
Note -- Jim Cook actually took his 1916 dash that had delaminated and the wood boards had all become loose and he cleaned it up, re-glued it (waterproof glue) and refinished it. He left it a natural look because it had come out so nice. It was missing the veneer face -- but looked so nice he couldn't bring himself to paint it black. But the old boards if solid and not warped can be reused -- or at least it worked well for him. (Note his car had been in the same family since new.) Below is a partial shot of his dash - (thanks Jim).
I did find where my notes were filed. No dimensions or drawing which is what we are hoping to be able to put together from the discussion. I have to get up early so I'm closing down for the night.
And yes, if we take the dimensions off an original firewall it has likely shrunk some as it dried out more? But if we can at least get those dimensions we should be able to make them better with a visit to the Benson Ford Archives and/or purchasing a copy of the 1915-16 firewall print.
And yes, while we are capturing items -- getting the 1917-1923 wood dash might also make sense?
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off.
Again thanks to those who have posted.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
Have you checked with Jon Anderson? He makes firewalls correctly, but isn't cheap.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
Hap is correct. This car is for go, not show, and plywood will be good enough for me. If it was an original 1915 maybe I would aspire to purity, but it's a put-together car from the seventies, and a new plywood firewall will replace an older plywood firewall that has seen better days. As Ray says, it will get painted black anyway.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
Call Rockler or Woodcraft. They may have what you need.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
I don’t understand at all. The effort it takes to do this, it only makes sense to do it right. Again, penny wise and pound foolish.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
As I mentioned above, Jon Anderson is making firewalls. As far as I know, and I do have one myself, he is doing them to the print. He has had problems in the past of getting the holes drilled in the correct places, and is expensive. The industry standard now for 3/4" plywood is 23/32" so it is not really a true 3/4. Jon's problem is he doesn't really have a shop set up as it should be to do this kind of work, but he tries, and is very good at it. If he would just rent a garage or a small building somewhere and set it up for woodworking, he would be way ahead. You need a shaper to make the correct glue joints, although it can be done with a table saw or a router, but it takes way to long to do it that way. I don't know this for a fact, but standard veneer is thinner than what Ford used, and that can be a problem too, as the core wood needs to be surfaced, and the veneer needs to be finished sanded on a sanding machine to be uniform.
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Re: 1915 Firewall drawing?
Need to confirm actual thickness and dimensions (Rockler)
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger