MTFCA Forum

In the current issue of the Vintage Ford, there is a picture of a 1914 touring with matching numbers! Impossible. If that is true, then someone has stamped a reproduction plate, and placed it on the firewall. Any further information on this car would be welcome. This photo is on page 1.

My ‘14 runabout has matching numbers too ! And it’s original, Original. I bought an original repro dataplate from Snyder’s and stamped the engine number on it with an original number set. Then I affixed it above the steering column like they originally were.

George House wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:38 am

My ‘14 runabout has matching numbers too ! And it’s original, Original. I bought an original repro dataplate from Snyder’s and stamped the engine number on it with an original number set. Then I affixed it above the steering column like they originally were.

Opps, you may have made it not "original".
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29 ... 1182652983
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1459527091
The number stamped into the Patent Plate identifies the serial number of the body, not the car Engine. Bodies were manufactured by various sub-contractors as well as by Ford. Per discussions matching numbers started to diverged about 1911, so they shouldn't match.

I want to comment about the car number, the engine number and the body number. The brass plate found on the firewall on all Model T's up to the middle of 1916 is called the "Car" number, and was considered the warranty plate for the car. The engine number on Model T's from 1909 through mid-1911 matched the number used on the warranty plate. After mid-1911, the numbers started to diverge and the number on the warranty plate was lower than the engine number (See the photos of the original 1912 warranty plate and engine number on an original 1912 touring). The body number was a number stamped into the seat frame or body sill on early cars and this number did not relate to any Ford numbers, although this number was noted on the build sheet on early cars. So, on early cars (pre-1916) there were three numbers found on the car, the warranty plate or Car Number, the engine number and the body number.

What makes this confusing is what number should be used when registering a Model T with the DMV? In Arizona, they will use the Car Number OR the engine number to register the car...it just depends upon the person working for the DMV!!!
I hope this helps,
Russ Furstnow

To further clarify, in 1917, the aluminum warranty plate had no numbers at all, and the engine number was used as the car's serial number. There was still a body number stamped into the seat frame and floorboard riser, but these numbers have no significance, other than what company made the body. In 1919, the first "Ford Service Bulletin" stated that the engine number was to be used as the car's serial number AND the engine number.
I hope this helps,
Russ Furstnow

Dear Original Smith,
I am the owner of this car. Please forgive me for my poor language when I said, "matching numbers." I just meant to state that the engine number and casting date are both 1914. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less. In hindsight, I shouldn't have said anything in this regard. I just thought folks might enjoy the photo. In no way, shape, or form did I intend to mislead anybody with my poor choice of words. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.
Sincerely,
Erik Larson

You are forgiven! I know this is important for people with prize winning '55 Chev's, but Russ pointed out the correct details above. In addition, I believe by 1916, Ford was not stamping the numbers on the brass plate at all. What I really liked seeing in Russ's post above is the 1912 with the correct foredoors on it. So many have been intentionally removed, which is sad.

Russ-
I disagree with the last half of your statement:
After mid-1911, the numbers started to diverge and the number on the warranty plate was lower than the engine number.

I have collected data on 1911 cars and have found serial numbers lower than the body (warranty plate) number, as well as cars with serial numbers higher than the body number. These have been on cars with original body number "patent" (or warranty) plates. Shipping invoices also show the number divergence going both ways as well.

-Keith

Now the thread should stipulate that this refers to USA built T's, Canadian had matching plate and engine numbers thru the teens.

Hi Keith, I would love to see photos of the cars, with the engine number and Car Number (warranty plate) you reference. Thanks, Russ Furstnow

Russ-
I will send you an e-mail!

: ^ )

Keith

Hopefully, without stepping on any toes, I would add to Russ F's comments that early brass era model Ts did actually have at least four serial numbers on them. The forth being that the radiator also had a serial number on it. Radiators were made by several companies, I don't know if they all used their own serial number system or if Ford supplied it? I do recall many years ago, a couple people claiming their very original early brass T having a matching radiator serial number to their engine number. However, I never saw it myself. As I recall, that discussion took place at a Long Beach Swap Meet about 45 years ago.
Unlike the "car" number and the "engine"/serial number, Ford never intentionally tried to keep the radiator numbers in sync with the car or engine serial numbers. Although the numbers were often in a similar range, they rarely if ever actually matched. And if any did match, it was merely a random happenstance.

Last week, on the AACA forum, there was a discussion about "patina" and that it had become just another "buzzword" and therefore basically meaningless. I added that "barn-find" had been meaningless. "Numbers matching" is another term that has no meaning anymore. It is a buzzword, designed to at best incite an emotional response, at worst perpetrate a fraud. While it used to really mean something to a very specialized area of the collector car hobby, it has been so overused and so many cars fraudulently restored to fake that status that even within the muscle car crowd it has become meaningless, whether they want to admit it or not.

Other than the improved era model Ts of 1926 and '27 (as pointed out by Steve T below), on USA model Ts the terms "numbers matching" or "matching numbers" never did have any real meaning, except maybe for a few 1909s and 1910s.

Thank you Steve T and Darren W for catching my errors!

I don't believe your complete statement is valid there, Wayne -

FRAME NUMBERS
Accession 94. Walter Fishleigh files.
“Motor number was first placed on frame side member R.H. on Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. Information obtained from Mr. Burns, Final Assy., Highland Park.”

Quite right Steve T! I tend to forget about the improved model Ts!
The only Ts I have had newer than 1921 was a 1925 TT many years ago, and the 1924 coupe I sold a few years ago.
I will add a disclaimer to my post to avoid future confusion and you may leave your correction and I can leave this one.
I don't believe in burying my mistakes.

The car that was used to recently replicate data plates in my latest project is a Canadian 1914 that has an ORIGINAL data plate that MATCHES the motor. This car has been in the same family since NEW. The grandson of the original owner has all the documentation of the car including the original bill of sale. Note that it still has it's original WOOD coil box. Something that didn't occur in the USA. This car hasn't been messed with. It also has an accessory front bumper and that, is on the original bill of sale as a dealer added option at the request of the owner originally.

It seems that Canadian cars follow a different pattern than American cars.

This plate was supposedly only used on 1912 USA cars but was used for a longer period of time in Canada.

Here's the proof:

Another issue possibly for another thread; Why bother issuing serial numbers on the radiators? Here's mine:

This numbers matching question is only a US production Thing in 1912 75,000 T were made but only 6,000 were Canadian so the Canadian cars have matching numbers more so than the US cars . My 12 is matching numbers {engine and brass Dash plate} but you can not compare US cars to any other because of the difference in production numbers.