MTFCA Forum

After sitting for years on a shelf I re-magnetized my HCCT in order to test and adjust some coils in current use, stored coils and to check out 3 new coils from one of our vendors.

All the units I am presently using and my spares were easily adjusted between 1.4-1.5 amps. and none had double sparks. Unfortunately 2 of the 3 new ones right out of the box from a well known vendor have some double sparks.

I have gone back into the archives and have read to get rid of the double sparking to…
(1) Use needle nose pliers and twist the upper points between the rear mounting nuts.
(2) Bend the upper points up or down at the end furthest from the two mounting nuts.
(3) Tap the top of the upper points with the butt of a screwdriver at the upper points rivet.

Anyone have better success or another idea before I try this out? I have a tendency to break things being too aggressive!

None of the above...

easier to send you here than type...: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80 ... 1248047074

Thanks Scott, That’s exactly what I needed. The MTFCA Electrical System Booklet I have does not explain this in the coil section.

I actually have one of the John Regan tools in a bag of old points and had forgotten it’s use.
What does this tool do? Also in the bag of old points…

All the units I am presently using and my spares were easily adjusted between 1.4-1.5 amps. and none had double sparks. Unfortunately 2 of the 3 new ones right out of the box from a well known vendor have some double sparks...... .. .......,.......... .........
Michael, the goal to set coils should be 1.3 amps. No matter who you received those coils from if they were sent through the mail there's a possibility through package handling the electrical values that were made at the coil rebuilders could very well be changed due to that package being dropped changing the tension on the coil points....

Michael . ......that tool was made to properly set the limiting rivet on the upper point assembly

Michael

points were notorious for having either too-large of a cushion spring/rivet gap, or outright loose rivets

those pliers were Ron Patterson's creation and were intended (once adjusted correctly) to press the rivet to the correct working length and then spread the center-peened end to keep it in place. I used to use mine to do the first part...set the rivet length and then I used my watchmaker's staking tool to finish the job. There were at least 20 from his first run of tools...I don't know if he did more or not. They were clever and I liked mine. Not a mandatory tool to use, but if you're doing a lot of the same work repetitively, they were handy and I'm happy to have mine though it doesn't get as much use as it used to.

Moxie26 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:27 pm

All the units I am presently using and my spares were easily adjusted between 1.4-1.5 amps. and none had double sparks. Unfortunately 2 of the 3 new ones right out of the box from a well known vendor have some double sparks...... .. .......,.......... .........
Michael, the goal to set coils should be 1.3 amps. No matter who you received those coils from if they were sent through the mail there's a possibility through package handling the electrical values that were made at the coil rebuilders could very well be changed due to that package being dropped changing the tension on the coil points....

Thanks for the help Bob. I’ll go back for the 1.3 amps. if possible.

This is interesting information. In addition to what has been said, would dirty or pitted points cause double sparks even though the tension is right?

Dirty points... Whatever shows as "dirty" may have some electrical insulation qualities... The upper and lower point assemblies would have to be removed and cleaned.,........ Pitted points would show metal transfer, which is common in older adjusted coils. Using a fine point file on these points, still a top the coil, would eliminate this metal transfer and clean the point surface, except for the depression in the opposite point, so point gap can be checked and adjusted physically and electrically.

It's best to start with new points. Bad points will affect adjustment. A well-adjusted coil will allow long point life. New or very good points will make adjusting a coil easier and make the adjustment more stable. Point alignment is critical, and the condition of the tension spring is critical.

Pat .... Agreeable. Not only should you have new point sets for your coils, the internal capacitor should be checked and/or changed.

If you can access one of Mr. Kossor's excellent ECCT units, you can easily check capacitors without taking the coil apart.

All of my KW coils have wooden tops. It looks to me like a steel top coil would be more likely to hold a precise adjustment. It's amazing how delicate an adjustment will make a significant difference in how the coil operates.

The capacitor inside the coil can be checked with a very affordable tester. I have one and use it regularly. I have never tested an old undisturbed coil that had a good capacitor.
I believe a tester. Is available f I r under 20 bucks on the internet.
Coil impedence meters which measure Henry's are also available at low prices. I don't have one but thinking about asking for one for Christmas, like I did for the capacitor tester..
Art Mirtes

Pat.. ..... Metal top coil terminals are physically insulated from the metal top, and hold their adjustment just as well as the later ones without the metal top.

With your reference to delicate adjustments.. any pressure on the terminals or point assemblies will change the electrical value, I'm talking about finger pressure outside vibration, and especially in mail order......

With due respect, most people having watched the cushion spring being adjusted or the amperage draw raised or lowered, would be seriously hard pressed to call adjustments "delicate".

Bending, tapping (hammering!) and/or prying are all involved.

Having lived in FL for most of my life, I was used to spring time when the wood case was fully shrunk after a "dry" winter, and an occasional misfire on one of my rebuilt (by me) coils would act up...a nut driver on the nuts invariably needed a 1/4 twist or so to firm connections up and never, not once, did a retightened coil require readjusting for either amperage or double sparking...and "yes" I always checked for good measure. In general, they could be ignored for a couple of years and then one would need tightening, and at that point, they'd all be checked for tightness and then verified for performance.

So long as the points do not receive a direct sharp blow, coils will readily survive shipping/handling and I would not call any of their adjustments or ability to remain adjusted, "delicate". Upon my entry into the hobby, I would not have believed it, but in fact, these things are amazingly robust.

I'm not looking to pick a fight with this post, and no one disagreeing with this will succeed in drawing me in. Have at it if you wish, though. I'm simply trying to make it clear to new owners that these things are not worthy of being afraid of, and if you have a good set of professionally rebuilt coils, and your car misbehaves in the future, do not constantly seek a cure in the coil box, nor become convinced by the local "T Expert" that a distributor is the sole solution to your problem...these things are robust and work great for many many years with exceptionally little attention.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:36 pm

If you can access one of Mr. Kossor's excellent ECCT units, you can easily check capacitors without taking the coil apart.

The ECCT units have not been available for quite some time. Chip shortage?

Scott, thank you for your post. Whatever companies have produced point sets through the years they have inadvertently used different materials. There have been sets of points where the upper rivet, through use, wore through the very thin metal of the vibrator. Coil boxes have been found to be tight in the middle case and were removed by pliers or fingers on the upper bridge that changed the electrical values. Thank you for your interests.

I have found that a very light tap or a gentle pry will make a measurable change the adjustment. I'd think metal top coils would be preferable to wood top ones in that the metal would provide a more stable base for the vibrator assembly. It's no trick at all to get a coil to buzz and produce a spark. Getting 4 of them to behave the same requires some finesse.

I just bought one of Mr. Kosser's tester outfits. Perhaps I got the last one.

I have been emailing this site for 6 weeks with no response and it says unavailable. Am I on the wrong site?

I guess so. I bought one with no difficulty. Order placed in the mail 10-12-21, received entire order last Friday via USPS. Try: mictel@comcast.net

"I had my coils adjusted by his eminance, the coil Guru, and haven't had the top off my coil box in 20 years and my car still runs great" Yeah, YoKay...... heard it before. Glad to know folks are enjoying driving their Model T: no matter what.

FWIW, I adjusted coils last night, it being my first attempt at using the ECCT, and without addressing the condition, gap or alignment of the points, all of which are less than ideal. I did not touch the timer. All of the coils showed to have dwell issues. I ran the capacitor test, and all showed good. I then proceded to the dwell adjustment, and with some fiddling, was able to bring them all into the excellent range. Some further adjustment was needed after running the double spark test. The difference between some of the coils was 7 degrees or more and 2 showed double sprking issues. I then rechecked them all, and one needed a little more persuasion on the dewll adjustment. I put them back in the car and fired it up and immediately noticed that it ran smoother. Today I took it out for a 25 mile run in 95 degree heat with a gusty wind. Overall performance was noticeably better with less throttle needed to ascend familiar hills, even with a headwind. An annoying sound that would occur at road speeds with the timing well advanced is gone. I'm still not happy with the idle, but that may be related to the condition of the points, the timer, or to a non-ignition problem. So far, it has started on Mag easily. It now runs at road speeds with a smooth, steady purr. A slight tendency to buck at low speeds in high is gone. I'm going to replace all the points and try to gap them accurately and then retest the coils and adjust as necessary. As soon as I get a radiator leak addressed, I'm going to install an I timer.

Pat..... Congratulations on improving your ignition.!!!

The car now starts pretty easily on MAG. If the mixture is correct, a brisk quarter pull and off it goes. Knowing this, I'm in no hurry to repair the generator and put it back on. The engine is somewhat quieter with the generator off. I made a block off plate from a metal cover plate for an electrical junction box. All it needed was 3 holes drilled.