Low Gear Engaging Too Late

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Tadpole
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Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by Tadpole » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:39 pm

Now first off I’m very new to T’s. This 25 coupe is my first, and I have had it almost 4 months. I have not had the car around anyone knowledgeable with T’s, so my work is based upon what I’ve read in books, my limited mechanical skill and the experiences of others on this forum.

I bought the car from flat northern land, but I live in North Eastern Kentucky and there are lots of big hills. In fact, it initially wouldn’t make it up my steep driveway without slipping.

I have taken the hogshead off, replaced the band linings with new Kevlar, and replaced the band springs, low speed shaft, cam and notch. I also welded and redrilled the low speed pedal to reduce excess play. I inspected my drums and they looked good.

To adjust the low speed band, I let the car run, wait till the oil is warm and put the car in neutral. I tighten the adjusting screw until the car creeps then I back it off just a hair.

The car pulls up the steep drive perfectly now, but my low pedal fully engages too close to the fire wall to drive with the floor installed. I have made adjustments in and out on the low speed clevis but it currently doesn’t seem to help.
Is this something I should just keep playing with till it is correct? Or is there an issue I am overlooking? The brake and reverse pedals engage as soon as they are depressed, but my low, while engaging sooner than it did before, is still engaging too late.

Also, my transmission is very loud while using the pedals. This is the only running T I have ever been near in person, and videos on the interweb don’t seem to have such noisey transmissions.

Thanks for your patience!
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MichaelPawelek
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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by MichaelPawelek » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:20 pm

Sounds like you have done some great work and already learned a lot. From years of hard use and heavy pressing on the left pedal your problem may be as simple as the pedal stem has been bent too far forward from use and needs to be bent a bit rearward. Others will have more ideas. Can you post a few pictures of the pedals in their relaxed position?

My 19’ Touring had been used for 30 years by a farmer in upper Michigan and according to a family member he used the back end of the T and a home made trailer to haul wood through muddy ravines and ditches every Winter. The whole front end was worn out and the left pedal, cam and notch worn and bent way out of original shape. Once I had the new cam and notch installed I carefully bent the pedal back cold with a very large pipe wrench on the stem under the foot pad. Some folks like to bend theirs hot.

P.S.- The Kevlar bands in my ‘19 make much more noise than the Scandinavians in my ‘25.


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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by John kuehn » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:21 pm

Have you gotten the Ford service manual? It has the adjustment and repair procedures for most all aspects of a T.
It sounds to me the clutch spring may be weak or the clutch discs may need adjusting. There are 3 clutch fingers that you adjust to the 13/16” adjustment between the lower side of the clutch shift and drive plate flange. It’s in paragraph 315 of the manual.
Another issue is a weak clutch spring. It can be replaced with the engine in the car according to the manual but it ‘ ain’t easy ‘ ! Most do it when the transmission is out of the car.

You can take up 1/2 turn or so on each clutch finger and that may help. You can get to each screw from the transmission cover pretty easy and carful not to drop the cotter keys in the transmissions.
When the floorboards are in the car you should get a good low speed when the pedal is about an 1” off the floor.
I have a 24 Coupe also but the pedal adjustment are about the same on most all Model T’s.

It also could be the pedal is over bent forward. It doesn’t take much for that to happen.

Good luck!


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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:34 pm

The clutch fingers do not operate the low band. They only work the high. If it doesn't slip in high, leave them alone. For proper adjustment you should have neutral about half way down and low about one inch above the floorboard. If it drags when you have the pedal in neutral, it means there is a problem in the adjustment between half way down and the floorboard. If you replaced the notch and cam the pedal should move in enough to hold the low tight before you hit the floorboard. Two things I can think of which could cause your problem.
1. The band is not completely round or you did not install the linings correctly. The correct method of installing the bands is to start with the two end rivets. The lining should hang over the bend about 1/4 inch. Then after the two ends are installed, work the lining around the band so it is tight against the band. If the lining is away from the band between the rivets, it will drag and you will get rapid wear and not have a free spinning drum.
2. The pedal is bent so that it is too close to the floorboard before you start to push it down. To fix this you would need to bend the pedal toward the seat enough so the band will be tight one inch above the floorboard.


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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:51 pm

Could the drum have been turned or worn undersize enough to cause this problem?


speedytinc
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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by speedytinc » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:00 am

First off, kudos for your low band adjusting method. Spot on for kevlar. You wont be breaking your low drum. Secondly, kevlar takes several adjustments before it is set & will require little to no further adjusting. That assumes you installed the lining correctly(no bumps or high spots) & band was perfectly round & installed with the HH off. Your low pedal may be bent & need to be pulled up.
One item that has bitten me untill recently, is excessive wear on the low pedal cam/notch. Look @ the amount of pedal movement lost before the shaft starts to squeeze the band. They are available new. After replacing a set for the first time, I strongly consider replacing when I have a HH off.
Late to the party here.


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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by mtntee20 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:10 am

Considering my limited experience, I would like to add an observation. The O.P. wrote he "welded the low speed pedal/shaft". This may, and I say "MAY" have contributed to the pedal being farther towards the floor board than original.

Now, one way to correct this is to bend the pedal shaft as has been posted above. Knowing the source of the problem will provide for an appropriate correction. Improper mounting of the band material and/or out of round bands must also be considered prior to determining the proper correction action.

My recent experience has been with the floor boards not having the slots cut in the proper position or length. Either way, the pedal travel was limited by the floor boards. Both instances were after market floor boards. This may or may not be the ultimate cause. I doubt if original floor boards would present this problem but I can see where after market ones might. I enacted the "quick fix" (removed wood until clearance was adequate). The ultimate answer will be worked on when time allows. The "quick" fix allowed me to drive the vehicles for the time being and as little as needed.

Good Luck


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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:15 am

mtntee20

I believe you have nailed it. It's amazing what you can discover when you take the time to read something thoroughly.
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TXGOAT2
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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:38 am

What part of the pedal hits the floorboard?

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Tadpole
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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by Tadpole » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:52 pm

Thank you all a lot for the help!

While I had the hogshead off I replaced the low speed cam, notch and shaft as they were worn.

I welded the low pedal pin hole but I don’t think the weld affected the pedal position because I welded only the front of the pedal. Additionally, if the hole’s position was altered, I don’t think it would have fit the shaft anymore.

My low pedal doesn’t get full bite before it is stopped by the floorboard, I haven’t replaced the floorboards but I don’t know how old they are.

Here are a couple shots of my pedals, does the low pedal look like it needs to be bent upward? This may be the route I take.
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AB7D167C-81EA-4E0A-AF43-810C035BF139.jpeg


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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by speedytinc » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:59 pm

Yes it do. @ rest, the brake & clutch pedal should be @ the same level If your clutch linkage is properly set.
I would confirm that first. See 1 manual. Your replacement pedal shaft may not have been drilled in the right spot. Cant blindly trust a repo part.


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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:42 pm

If the parking brake lever is all the way forward, your pedal is bent. It should be back as far as the brake when it is at rest. This is a common problem caused by a lot of use of the low pedal and pressing very hard. I have had good results by using a very large wrench such as a pipe wrench about a foot and a half long. I just put it around the shaft and pull back hard. Do not heat the pedal shaft. Or you could look for another pedal. But since you welded it, it would be hard to change.
Norm

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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by DanTreace » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:16 am

Typical relationship of the pedals. You may have to bend your low speed pedal back, as it may be deformed as posted by others.

Hand lever forward, clutch engaged, low speed pedal approx. above level of brake pedal.

IMG_5610.jpg

Hand lever pulled back 1/2 way to 'neutral', low speed pedal advances some, now lower than brake pedal.
IMG_5611.jpg
Pedal relationship.jpg
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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by CudaMan » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:57 am

Great picture showing the side-on view of the pedals! I saved that one for future reference.

Here is a video showing one way to bend the pedals, starting about 15 minutes in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVahNWC ... G&index=25
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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by John Codman » Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:03 am

My T is a '27 with the wide pedals. My low/high pedal is the same height as the reverse pedal, and the brake pedal is lower. All of the pedal-controlled systems work properly.

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Tadpole
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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by Tadpole » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:56 am

I wanted to give a hearty "thank you" to you all for the help. I have heated and bent back the low and brake pedals and that has helped a great deal. I've got my floor in and have plenty of bite. Thanks again!


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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by John Codman » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:25 am

In the OP he mentioned that the transmission is "noisy when using the pedals". Every T that I have ever driven was noisy in low gear.


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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by Nv Bob » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:05 am

Just had simular thing with crappy repo parts
Won't mention the supplier
But they where NEW
Clutch pedal shaft pins pedal cam and slow speed notch
Well after 30 mile pedal and came moving on shaft
After disassembly the pin holes are atleast .010 bigger dia then the pins and the slow speed notch was .030 shorter then my orginal oneand when on my orhial shaft sits behind that stepped lip
On tge other posts weak clutch spring only effect the car in high not pushing on low band
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Tadpole
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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by Tadpole » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:45 pm

Bob,

Hard to hear about the quality on those parts. I replaced those on my machine, hope they last.


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Re: Low Gear Engaging Too Late

Post by speedytinc » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:12 pm

Tadpole wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:45 pm
Bob,

Hard to hear about the quality on those parts. I replaced those on my machine, hope they last.
Let this be a lesson. Its nice to have parts available, but some are substandard. Trust no repop part blindly.
Verify. This particular part is usable after you fix it. A 1/2 a good part IS better than no part.

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