Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
-
Topic author - Posts: 339
- Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:45 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Killelea
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926
- Location: Northport NY
Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
Hi All,
While slowly hand cranking the engine for the first time since I got it, only coils 1 and 4 are buzzing. Does anybody have any ideas? Roller timer is used and possibly original. I don't know what to look for. Coils are from Ron and they're great and well adjusted.
Could I need a new timer? Thanks in advance.
John
While slowly hand cranking the engine for the first time since I got it, only coils 1 and 4 are buzzing. Does anybody have any ideas? Roller timer is used and possibly original. I don't know what to look for. Coils are from Ron and they're great and well adjusted.
Could I need a new timer? Thanks in advance.
John
-
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:23 pm
- First Name: Jeff
- Last Name: Humble
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Canadian built coupe, 1924 TT C-cab, survivor 1924 roadster
- Location: Charlevoix, Mi
- MTFCA Number: 28034
- Board Member Since: 2006
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
First swap out the buzzing coils with the non buzzing coils and try again. If problem moves to 2 & 3 it is the coils, if swaping coils has no impact it is the timer, the coil box, or the wiring between the timer and coil box.
Last edited by Humblej on Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 6411
- Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
- First Name: Pat
- Last Name: McNallen
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
- Location: Graham, Texas
- MTFCA Number: 51486
- Board Member Since: 2021
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
The timer is a likely suspect. In addition, the coil box terminals and the contacts inside the coil box may need attention, and the wiring between the coil box and the timer could have issues. Cleaning and oiling the timer may get it working, if it proves to be the problem.
-
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:02 pm
- First Name: George
- Last Name: Hand
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 open express, 1920 touring, 1926 tudor-lisenced and insured, 1921tt project 1922 fendered chassis, 192x tt dootle bug 192xengine w/winch projects
- Location: Preble NY
- MTFCA Number: 28114
- MTFCI Number: 21834
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
John, With the Key on (battery) turn the engine if needed until no coils spark, then take a piece of primary wire that is grounded on one end. Now take the other end (with a little insulation stripped off the ends) touch each of the top row of coil box terminals and listen for each one to function. If all will buzz one at a time the problem is the timer or the wiring harness to the timer. If you still have some coils that do not work try to push the coils forward by wedging a thin piece of cardboard between the back of the coil & the inside of the coil box, tightening a loose coil. If still having issues swap coils as needed. Use care in bending coil box terminals for tightening loose coils, sand terminals on coils if needed. George
-
- Posts: 3907
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Kuehn
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 19 Roadster, 21 Touring, 24 Coupe
- Location: Texas
- MTFCA Number: 28924
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
This is a common issue with T’s that’s been happening since they were built.
All the ideas mentioned are good ones to find out what the issue is.
No. 1 Is to swap the coils around. If no. 1 and 4 are still not firing it could be the timer, contacts in the coil box, loose connections on the firewall and any wiring going to 1 and 4.
My first thing to do would be to cleanup the timer. If it still misses at 1 and 4 replace the roller and timer.
Good luck.
All the ideas mentioned are good ones to find out what the issue is.
No. 1 Is to swap the coils around. If no. 1 and 4 are still not firing it could be the timer, contacts in the coil box, loose connections on the firewall and any wiring going to 1 and 4.
My first thing to do would be to cleanup the timer. If it still misses at 1 and 4 replace the roller and timer.
Good luck.
-
- Posts: 1053
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:20 pm
- First Name: Joe
- Last Name: Bell
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Fordor
- Location: Tiffin Ohio
- MTFCI Number: 24066
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
I would check the timer, spring has come off the roller or flapper if Anderson.
-
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:37 pm
- First Name: Paul
- Last Name: Robertson
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Ford model tt 1921 right hand drive
- Location: Heathfield, east sussex, uk
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
Joe, I think you're correct. I recently spent hours trying to figure out this problem. Still learning about the T mechanics I checked wiring, swapped coil positions all to no avail. Then logic stepped in, what kept the roller in contact with the timer cover, inertia or mechanical? It had to be mechanical. A call to Neil Tuckett to ascertain my assumption. When asked he replied " an easy way to tell whether the spring is weak or missing only coils one and four produce a spark"!
Lesson learnt!
Lesson learnt!
-
- Posts: 992
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:36 pm
- First Name: Adrian
- Last Name: Whiteman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 TT, 1924 Colonial Roadster, 1924 'Bullnose' Morris, 1925 'Bullnose' Morris, 1936 JD AR
- Location: South Island, New Zealand
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
Yep, I had only 1 coil firing this week getting 'Ned" out of winter hibernation. Clean of the timer and roller, now all 4 spark away happily.My first thing to do would be to cleanup the timer.
-
- Posts: 3907
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Kuehn
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 19 Roadster, 21 Touring, 24 Coupe
- Location: Texas
- MTFCA Number: 28924
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
Glad you got you T going! Most of the time it’s the simple things that are the issue. Liked the way you used old fashioned ‘logic’ to figure it out.
In today’s world of computerized technology in cars it would have to be almost overthought as to what was wrong.
In today’s world of computerized technology in cars it would have to be almost overthought as to what was wrong.
-
- Posts: 1315
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:20 pm
- First Name: Robert
- Last Name: Jablonski
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Runabout
- Location: New Jersey
- MTFCA Number: 407
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
I wonder if "NY JohnT" solved his T's problem from these responses ????
-
Topic author - Posts: 339
- Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:45 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Killelea
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926
- Location: Northport NY
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
Coils 2 and 3 not buzzing:
Here’s what I did so far:
Cleaned and polished all contacts in coil box
Gave each brass contact a little lift from the wood
Took out all coils (newly rebuilt by Ron Patterson) and pressed them into coilbox and pressed them against the contacts
Installed brand new wiring harness between coil box and timer
Cleaned the timer and roller, but didn’t add any oil or lubricant. Roller spring seems to work fine. Could possibly use more cleaning.
I have a new Anderson timer on another T and will switch that one to see for sure if it’s the timer.
Question: Is there a certain wear pattern on the timer cover that would show that the roller isn’t making contact properly? I have two covers and they have different wear patterns.
Thanks to all for the suggestions.
John
Here’s what I did so far:
Cleaned and polished all contacts in coil box
Gave each brass contact a little lift from the wood
Took out all coils (newly rebuilt by Ron Patterson) and pressed them into coilbox and pressed them against the contacts
Installed brand new wiring harness between coil box and timer
Cleaned the timer and roller, but didn’t add any oil or lubricant. Roller spring seems to work fine. Could possibly use more cleaning.
I have a new Anderson timer on another T and will switch that one to see for sure if it’s the timer.
Question: Is there a certain wear pattern on the timer cover that would show that the roller isn’t making contact properly? I have two covers and they have different wear patterns.
Thanks to all for the suggestions.
John
-
- Posts: 1315
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:20 pm
- First Name: Robert
- Last Name: Jablonski
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Runabout
- Location: New Jersey
- MTFCA Number: 407
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
With a cold engine, turn key on battery and slowly hand crank.... do you hear each coil vibrate ?
-
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:02 pm
- First Name: George
- Last Name: Hand
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 open express, 1920 touring, 1926 tudor-lisenced and insured, 1921tt project 1922 fendered chassis, 192x tt dootle bug 192xengine w/winch projects
- Location: Preble NY
- MTFCA Number: 28114
- MTFCI Number: 21834
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
John, Roller type timers will create a random wear pattern on the metal timer case contacts. I still would like to see you try to ground out each terminal from the timer wiring at the top 4 terminals of the Coil Box & see if that makes the coils to function, bypassing the timer & wiring. George
-
Topic author - Posts: 339
- Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:45 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Killelea
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926
- Location: Northport NY
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
Hi George,
I plan to do exactly that. However the T is half an hour away and I won't be able to get to it till next weekend.
Thanks for the good suggestion,
John
I plan to do exactly that. However the T is half an hour away and I won't be able to get to it till next weekend.
Thanks for the good suggestion,
John
-
Topic author - Posts: 339
- Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:45 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Killelea
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926
- Location: Northport NY
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
Hi George.
I tried grounding the coils and nothing worked. I had another an issue with the generator cutout which touched the gen body and started smoking. Guess it's burned out. Anyway, the coils didn't buzz. Thanks. I guess it's time to get a new Andersen timer. Have one on the other T and it works fine.
John
I tried grounding the coils and nothing worked. I had another an issue with the generator cutout which touched the gen body and started smoking. Guess it's burned out. Anyway, the coils didn't buzz. Thanks. I guess it's time to get a new Andersen timer. Have one on the other T and it works fine.
John
-
- Posts: 892
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 pm
- First Name: James
- Last Name: Bartsch
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '26 Coupe
- Location: Dryden, NY 13053
- MTFCA Number: 30615
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
John: If you are manually grounding the timer contacts to the block, do any of the coils 'buzz'? ( Apparently #'s 1 and 4 did buzz when you began to troubleshoot the problem.) If none buzz now, a new timer is NOT the solution. Is the contact strip at the bottom of the coilbox 'hot' with ignition switch set on battery? That's an easy check with your VOM, check dc voltage from strip to engine head (should be close to 6 V DC, if no voltage present, check battery voltage, nothing will buzz if battery is dead). Next, verify timer continuity by checking resistance between timer wire contacts on coilbox and engine head. That should be open when timer roller is not in contact with that cylinder contact, and closed (~0 Ohms) when roller is on the contact corresponding to the terminal you are checking. Check all 4 contacts by turning the engine over at least twice in the process for each one. Don't randomly start swapping in parts until you know the source of the problem, good luck, jb
(I would deal with the generator separately, If battery is completely dead, charge it and check timer and coil function, sort that out then tackle the cutout issues.)
(I would deal with the generator separately, If battery is completely dead, charge it and check timer and coil function, sort that out then tackle the cutout issues.)
-
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:02 pm
- First Name: George
- Last Name: Hand
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 open express, 1920 touring, 1926 tudor-lisenced and insured, 1921tt project 1922 fendered chassis, 192x tt dootle bug 192xengine w/winch projects
- Location: Preble NY
- MTFCA Number: 28114
- MTFCI Number: 21834
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
As James indicated the Timer is not the culprit at this time. If none of the Coils would function by grounding any of the top row of terminals with the key turned to battery you do not have any battery voltage or the wire you used was open or not grounded. If you do not have access to a VOM a simply test lamp will do all you need, test can be performed in less time that it will take me to type this. Test the circuits involved Not Disturbing the potential issue & creating another problem while trying to figure out the original one. George
-
- Posts: 945
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:39 pm
- First Name: James
- Last Name: Golden
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Model T Roadster
- Location: Bowie, MD
- MTFCA Number: 14294
- MTFCI Number: 13562
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
The normal coils not buzzing from a weak spring holding the roller against the timer ring are 1 and 3, as they are connected to the top two timer cover terminals, unless the 3 and 4 wires are reversed.
If you are using a New Day timer, the terminals are labled 1, 2, 3, and 4, going counter clockwise from the top.
If you hook 3 and 4 to coil box coils 3 and 4, then you will have a problem!
If you are using a New Day timer, the terminals are labled 1, 2, 3, and 4, going counter clockwise from the top.
If you hook 3 and 4 to coil box coils 3 and 4, then you will have a problem!
-
Topic author - Posts: 339
- Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:45 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Killelea
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926
- Location: Northport NY
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
Hi all,
A lot of great suggestions. I really appreciate that. I will have to take some time to sort it all out. Guess there's a lot I don't know about electricals. I will be going to the location where the car is today, but I have Thanksgiving events and family there (I'm making the pumpkin pies) which will take some time. You know, you can't just disappear to work on the T while guests and family are there. Happy Thanksgiving to all,
John
A lot of great suggestions. I really appreciate that. I will have to take some time to sort it all out. Guess there's a lot I don't know about electricals. I will be going to the location where the car is today, but I have Thanksgiving events and family there (I'm making the pumpkin pies) which will take some time. You know, you can't just disappear to work on the T while guests and family are there. Happy Thanksgiving to all,
John
-
- Posts: 397
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:59 am
- First Name: G.R.
- Last Name: Cheshire
- Location: La Florida
- MTFCA Number: 29759
Re: Help. Only Coils 1 and 4 are firing.
I know this may be silly but, Does your coil box have a properly fitted lid? I had one that someone had removed the hold down fingers in the middle section it would run fine until you hit a bump. then you would have to remove the lid and push the center 2 coils back down.....
Do it right or do it over,your choice. Drive like everyone is out to get you!