MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

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ivaldes1
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MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by ivaldes1 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:13 pm

Hey I am an official MTFCA member now! I received my first magazine which had an intriguing first of a series of articles on going 50 mph with your T. Shirley my 1924 parts salad was easily and unusually hitting 34 mph yesterday probably because the gas tank was low. I look forward to the next articles on how to go 50 mph although I would be happy with 38 mph :lol: -- IV


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Scottio » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:02 pm

50 MPH in a T? :o Do they say anything about trying to stop if something unexpected happens? Ha ha. I had mine up to 42 MPH before but then I remembered I have 35 MPH brakes. I would like to cruise my T around that fast but with the steering and brakes we have that would be a very exciting ride. I have heard of folks putting a lot of work to get their cars to go that fast and hats off to them. I’ll just putt around at 35. Speed kills. Stay alive at 35 Ha ha.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by bud delong » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:44 pm

Over many years i have been clocked at 52 in the 14 but that was before i broke my first crankshaft! Now 25-30 is fast and i do not wan't to break another! Bud.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Colin Mavins » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:48 pm

I had my 1912 T up to 45 mph and there was more to go but lose my nerve, you have to ask the question . How fast are you willing to go on 100 year old hickory spokes. Its runs very nice between 25 and 35 . I keep it to 30-35 on the highway and 20 around town. I have all ways said if you want fast buy a Corvette. Cheers from the flood plain Manitoba.

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Jugster » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:15 pm

The idea of keeping your Model T in tune, with good tires and all the steering and suspension parameters perfectly dialed in and balanced is, of course, a good idea. Such a car is a joy to drive—at speeds for which the car was designed. Still, I read, with fair regularity, the exploits of intrepid Model T Ford-owning stalwarts pushing the envelope Chuck Yeager-style whereby the driver sustains 55+ mph speeds for protracted periods. C'mon, does that really sound like a safe practice?

From my point of view, the most important consideration with regard to driving a brass car is its ability to stop, and as the Model T has braking action on the rear wheels only and her tires are skinny enough to have the same footprint as a shot-glass, I realize there just isn’t going to be a whole lot of traction there for panic-stops (Now, the physics types are going to argue that when it comes to braking action, the width of a wheel doesn't matter and traction remains the same, regardless. With all due respect, that’s baloney. It’s baloney because we're not talking about a theoretical steel wheel on a steel track. We're talking soft rubber tires against hard, textured pavement—and if you don't believe pavement is textured, I'll remind you of the school-yard bully who rubbed his victims' faces on it—we call that "road-rash" for a reason).

Secondary to stopping distance, but still perfectly capable of killing a Model T driver dead as Elvis, is the matter of wood-spoke wheels. Even in good condition, they can’t handle a whole lot of the side-load such as might be encountered in a curve taken at high speed, and that kind of stress can put you squarely into the maybe/maybe-not zone. Though hickory spokes don’t fatigue, when they finally do let go, you’re likely to see the shattering story on your local news station—and here. Same deal with potholes. Those asphalt ambuscades lurking in springtime shadows can rattle your vertebral column clear up to your teeth, bend the steel rims of even a modern car—and smash a brass car's wooden spokes to kindling. At speed in your Chevy Malibu, you may be able to see a deep pothole in time to swerve and avoid, but the word, “swerve,” does not exist in Ford Model T lexicon—certainly not at the kind of speeds we're discussing.

And then there are other things like a tippy, high center of gravity, the front wishbone design I don’t fully trust—and of course, side and frontal crash protection is practically non-existent. I use the word, “practically,” because once upon a time, when a musician, I owned a 1961 Volkswagen MicroBus, the frontal crash protection of which consisted of a headlight and a pair of sunglasses, and so, incredibly, was even worse than that of a Model T Ford. Come to think of it, when carrying a Hammond B3, Leslie, various guitars, amps and a load of hippies, braking action was also worse than that of the aforementioned Flivver. That this rolling blood-box could actually attain highway speeds—albeit only after the passage of an impressive interval—was perhaps indicative of a residual desire on the part of the Germans to knock off a few more Americans, and testament to the belief in invincibility only possessed by youth. It’s entertaining to imagine that by, instead, tootling around town in a Model T Ford, I’ve actually increased my odds of survival. Go figure, huh?

I drive my Flivver in traffic a lot and an all too familiar feeling of vulnerability keeps me on red-alert all the time, even at a manageable 30 mph. When I read about guys pushing the Tin Lizzie to highway speeds, the hair on the back of my neck takes notice.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by KeithG » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:25 pm

Well said, Bob! I admire your creative writing ability....

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:52 pm

And yet, this is the direction a growing minority seems to be taking things...
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by BobD » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:26 pm

The article, “A Real Test of the Ford Model T” was written in the context of participating in the Montana 500.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Matth » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:56 pm

I guess I hit the nail on the head! Can’t do 55, can’t stop, death grip on the wheel and hair on your neck standing up! Apparently there are many model T’s That really aren’t set up correctly to experience theses situations. The article was written in the context of the Montana 500 , one of if not the longest running Model T events. The idea is if the 500 car can run comfortably at these speeds and you can’t with the same car, then your car isn’t set up right. The Montana 500 has an incredible safety record, if the accident rate was high and drivetrain failure was high , then I too would say this is all bunk! But the contrary is true. Sure , parts break , that’s what happens in a timed endurance run! If any one gets great enjoyment out of parade speed tours, more power to you. As for me, I want the best prepared car I can have for not only safety but pure driving enjoyment! If another Model T is put back on the road due to the efforts of a builder wanting to compete in the 500 I think that’s great! I know of 6 in the last 3 years alone that fit in that category. Please don’t get your feelings hurt if our cars run exceptionally well, maybe try embracing some of our building methods to make your car safer and more enjoyable!


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by StanHowe » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:24 pm

The Montana 500 has been running since at least 1964 -- the first year I was on it. Some years there were nearly 50 cars, some years 7 or 8. If you cipher up the mileage........... each car runs 500 miles per year, most years they average around 50 miles per hour. So if there is an average of 25 cars ( I don't have time to look up participation every year since 64) there have been 18 + 36 runs -- which equals 54 runs times 25 cars equals 1350 cars running over the years times 500 miles each is 675,000 miles of "endurance" runs on Montana highways since it started. There has never been a serious accident, no one has ever caused a serious accident, ie: hitting an oncoming car while passing, etc. As far as I know, no one has ever been hurt. (other than their feelings and that is usually because they showed up with what they thought was a fast car and then found out they couldn't run with the little dogs let alone big dog guys like Nick Nicholas and Steve Coniff) Over the years I am sure there have been over 250 participants.

That is a record seldom equaled if ever for any kind of speed or endurance run.

I don't know if the race started earlier than 64 but in 1964 - which was the Territorial Centennial for Montana, about 40 cars left Baker to run to Helena. At that time there was very little Interstate, most of the race was on two lane roads. We could only run about 42 or 43 but we finished. Out of the 35 or so that finished most were back the next year. Over the years the technology to make a T more reliable has evolved, most but not all run on wire wheels now but the basic rules are the same. A full bodied stock Model T running an NH carburetor and one of half a handful of stock type timers. These rules are to keep the cars slowed down and with some big zoom carbs and different timers most of them would be much faster than they are.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by StanHowe » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:39 pm

Personally, I get a kick out of people who have never been to Montana let alone the Montana 500 going on and on and on and on about how dangerous the race it is and about driving in traffic and etc., etc., etc., etc.

For a little clarification, Montana is as big as California, over 700 miles long and over 400 mile north to south. It is further from the northwest corner of Montana to the southeast corner of Montana than it is from Chicago to New York. It is a little over 2200 miles around the outside border.

The total population is just over 1 million and that counts all the people who have a summer home here but probably actually live in Hollywood or somewhere. MOST of those people live in what is called the Ski Corridor, starting at Whitefish and going south to Hamilton and east from Missoula to Bozeman. The rest live in rural Montana -- the northern wheat belt, the eastern Montana ranch country and in some places nobody lives. There are several places where it is 100 miles between towns and the town is 100-300 people when you get there. Petroleum county has 700 residents. Carter County is as big as Connecticut and has 2200 people. Beaverhead County is bigger than Connecticut and has about 3,000 if you take out Dillon and the college. We have a lot of BIG mountains and a lot of flat ground. We have 30,000 miles of two lane roads, which is mostly where the 500 takes place.

It is 500 miles from where I live to my ranch which is 75 miles east of Miles City. When you leave Miles City there is a sign that says "Next Gas, 80 miles." When you leave Grass Range for Jordan the sign says "Next Gas, 100 miles, daylight hours only." But they lie. They now have a pump you can use a credit card in after dark.

The people who lease my ranch have about 75 sections. That is 48,000 acres. It is far from the biggest ranch in eastern Montana. There are many that are well over 100,000 acres.

This is a different world out here.

Back to the shop.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Derek Kiefer » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:58 pm

I'd argue that going 50mph on an open 2-lane highway (where traffic runs 60+) is no more dangerous than the risk of getting run over from behind while going 30mph on that same highway.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Tom_Carnegie » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:02 pm

The figures that Stan quoted above are very accurate. Should we examine national tours where people drive their cars at slow speeds? I know of several accidents on national tours including multiple instances where death was the result. I've been on speedster runs where people were injured and even killed. I've heard of many, many instances of folks getting rear-ended while driving slowly in their T. It has happened to a couple of friends of mine. One incident resulted in a broken back the other in a death. So, don't tell me slower is safer, 'cause the facts just don't bear this out. Everyone goes on and on about stopping distance. In my opinion (from a Montana 500 context) it just ain't that important. Sure a deer could pop out in front of you, or something like that, but all the brakes in the world can't always save you in a situation like that.

I think a lot of folks don't quite grasp the concept of driving for an hour or so and only encountering a hand full of modern cars. Montana is bigger than the country of Germany and has about a million people in it and nearly half of them live in Billings.

Here's a video, several minutes long. How many non T's do you see?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mphNQTO5ho

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned in a T, slow kills.

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by ewdysar » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:17 pm

I disagree with some of the things that have been said about the inherent weakness of wood spoke wheels. In less than 5 seconds on Google, I found: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/25 ... 1333819622 . I know and respect a couple of the people that contributed to that thread and others that attest to the suitability of wood wheels , even at speeds beyond 50mph.

I personally believe that it is easier to drive a fast car slow, than it is to drive a slow car fast. I don't consider either of my T's to be slow cars.

Keep crankin'
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Mindless Automaton » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:20 pm

I've done 50MPH in a stock T. It's white knuckle driving, and you'd do well to have a balanced engine. Mine didn't have counterweights, being pieced together from other peoples cast-offs you don't get that luxury, but with stock size tires, matched weight pistons and balanced crankshaft ect, you can just hit 50.
I've done 65MPH in a stock looking T. But it has a counterweighted 'model A ford' stroke crankshaft, a slightly higher lift cam (touring spec'?) 6:1 compression head and a 3:1 crownwheel & pinion. It had AC brakes on the rear, 'Hassler' shocks and 5:1 steering gears. Drove well & didn't feel unsafe at all.

So if you want 50MPH that's probably a good place to start.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Loftbed » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:28 pm

I once took the 22 yellow speedster home from my shop ~ 7 miles on the local "Belt Line" (4 lane). The speed limit is 55 mph on that stretch and most people far exceed that. I was able to keep up with most of the traffic but what was the scariest part of that little adventure was those people passing me, not the passing itself, but everyone of those drivers was looking back at the 22 long after they passed!!!! I stay on less traveled roads now.

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:53 pm

Does anyone know how many 1909-1914 model T's have competed in the 500?
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by walber » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:13 pm

Hey guys, the Montana 500 cars are "stock" Model T's - standard ratio rear axle, T cranks with no counterweights, standard heads (with some milling permitted), an NH carb, coils and timer, no modern bearings and no overdrives. The only modern accessories I've seen are shock absorbers and gauges. However, they are dramatically different in the care and precision of their preparation from 90+% of the other Model T's on the road today. These folks know their cars and how to get the highest level of performance and greatest reliability and safety out of a Model T. As Stan and Matt said and the video Tom posted shows, you can go a long way in Montana with almost no modern traffic. It is almost certainly the safest place for this type of performance test with very light traffic and very good roads. I love travelling in Montana and have come along on a few 500's in touring class with my speedster to watch these men and ladies compete. I greatly admire their efforts and attitudes in the running of this event.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Tom Hicks » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:50 pm

Stock engine, stock transmission, stock rear, no overdrive, 50 MPH? How many RPM are these engines turning at 50 MPH?
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by BobD » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:58 pm

Tom Hicks wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:50 pm
Stock engine, stock transmission, stock rear, no overdrive, 50 MPH? How many RPM are these engines turning at 50 MPH?
According to the chart I have, 2035 RPM. Notes on chart indicate 3.63:1 axle ratio, 30 x 3.5” tires. Graph from L.R. Henry, Ford Motor Co. Data Jan. 1922

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by ewdysar » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:15 pm

Here's the link to the Montana 500 webpage:

http://www.antiqueautoranch.com/montana ... fresh.html

I spent a little time wandering around here and saw that in the early years there were a couple of '15s that completed. I didn't see any evidence of earlier brass cars in photos or articles. In the speed tips, I found the following "Most people use 26-7 roadsters as they are by far the most aerodynamic. They seem to have an advantage on the flat and down hill. 23-5 roadsters are second most popular as they are lighter than 26-7's so they have an advantage in hilly country."

You can also see in the pictures that while wire wheels appear to be preferred, wood wheels were not uncommon.

From 1968 through 1976, there were two classes, aluminum or cast iron pistons were the difference, the class winning speeds were not that far apart. Keep in mind that the speeds noted are average speeds, and we all know that we run slower uphill....

If you look at the results, you can find a link to the disqualifications. Check out the reasons if you want to get an idea about how stock these cars are (yes, they are pretty stock).

Keep crankin'
Eric


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Tom Hicks » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:18 pm

BobD wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:58 pm
According to the chart I have, 2035 RPM. Notes on chart indicate 3.63:1 axle ratio, 30 x 3.5” tires. Graph from L.R. Henry, Ford Motor Co. Data Jan. 1922
2035 RPM???!!? NO! I have been advised by the experienced on this board that a Model T engine and transmission, newly rebuilt by a professional, with a SCAT Stroker crank, Stipe cam, Prus head, all balanced and built first class with no shortcuts can NOT run at 1900 RPM safely.

IF that is true, this board should not condone anyone posting about running a stock engine and transmission over 2000 RPM. Many who read this board are new to Model T's and come here for accurate information.

My question is to professional engine builders and those who truly know, is a professionally built and balanced engine and transmission like I described above safe to run at 1900 RPM?
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Ruxstel24 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:26 pm

Tom, a couple things I recall following this..
1) MT 500 cars are often ran 500 miles a year and thoroughly gone through for the next year.

2) A stock T crank will take 2000+ rpm for 500 miles, 5000... maybe not. And we're not talking a constant 2000 rpm for 500 miles.

3) Longevity vs Revolutions per...everything is a trade off.

Just my 2 cents :)

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by ewdysar » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:41 pm

Tom,

Build what you want, drive it as fast as you're comfortable with. Your choice and your responsibility. If she breaks, then you get to fix her. We all risk our stuff and our lives (and the lives of others) everyday. How we do that is really personal choice.

The opinions presented are are just that, opinions. My mongrel '15 touring with cast iron pistons pulls right up to 50mph, but another driver might not take her past 40... personal choice

Personally, I think that stroker engines are slower (or more precisely, lower max rpm potential i.e. think DZ 302 versus a 383, same bore, way different stroke) again, personal choice.

Keep crankin',
Eric

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:45 pm

Much of the country away from major population centers is similar to Stan's description of Montana. On a Model T drive of more than fifty miles near home I have seen three modern vehicles, and two of them were the same pickup twice. Last fall on a US highway in Missouri parallel to an interstate the traffic was pretty much limited to the Amish buggies and me. I have also driven my 1915 runabout 50 mph briefly, just to see if I could. But I choose not to do that as a regular practice for various reasons, even where there's a lack of traffic. Even with a balanced engine and transmission, I believe a Model T will survive much longer at 35 mph than it will at 45 mph or 55 mph. I want the car to outlast me. While it's quite possible to be killed at relatively low speed, I believe the odds of surviving an "event" in a Model T are better at 35 mph than at 45 mph or 55 mph. I find the thirties perfectly comfortable, and I'm content to not push the car or my luck.

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Tom_Carnegie » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:49 pm

" MT 500 cars are often ran 500 miles a year and thoroughly gone through for the next year."

Really?

My latest Montana 500 T was built in 2010. It has about 35000 miles on it. I may pull the head every four years or so and regrind the valves, but I don't thoroughly go through my T every year. I do drive a lot of miles and spend a lot of time tuning, however.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Tom Hicks » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:02 pm

Tom_Carnegie wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:49 pm
" MT 500 cars are often ran 500 miles a year and thoroughly gone through for the next year."

Really?

My latest Montana 500 T was built in 2010. It has about 35000 miles on it. I may pull the head every four years or so and regrind the valves, but I don't thoroughly go through my T every year. I do drive a lot of miles and spend a lot of time tuning, however.
Thanks. I truly appreciate the voice of experience from one who knows.

And I would like to hear from more who truly know.
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Ruxstel24 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:03 pm

Tom_Carnegie wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:49 pm
" MT 500 cars are often ran 500 miles a year and thoroughly gone through for the next year."

Really?

My latest Montana 500 T was built in 2010. It has about 35000 miles on it. I may pull the head every four years or so and regrind the valves, but I don't thoroughly go through my T every year. I do drive a lot of miles and spend a lot of time tuning, however.
I was just recalling what I read on the other thread. Often, of course doesn't mean everyone.
I imagine you are more thorough than the average T owner, Tom.

Quote from the cost to rebuild thread.
Quote by Dan Trease

"Sure the Montana 500 guys and gals run a fast avg. of 50+ and roll down hills above 60, with all stock Ford parts, flywheel magneto too, but this is one week of runs. Most go over the motor and drive line before the next race, just like all racers do"


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:25 pm

Tom

in reality, most here drive their cars 55MPH regularly, and when on tour, if late to get to the lunch stop, will drive up to 75-80MPH to get there. They're just trying to hold you back so they can get seconds before the food runs out. There is no reason to not expect somewhere over 100K+ miles on an engine run regularly at 3000+ RPM, particularly if you use Marvel Mystery Oil and aluminum pistons.

Note, some portion of this post is an exageration...for instance, no one is ever late when food is involved.
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Tom Hicks » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:33 pm

Scott_conger wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:25 pm
Tom

in reality, most here drive their cars 55MPH regularly, and when on tour, if late to get to the lunch stop, will drive up to 75-80MPH to get there. They're just trying to hold you back so they can get seconds before the food runs out. There is no reason to not expect somewhere over 100K+ miles on an engine run regularly at 3000+ RPM, particularly if you use Marvel Mystery Oil and aluminum pistons.

Note, some portion of this post is an exageration...for instance, no one is ever late when food is involved.
Thanks, your response based on your in-depth knowledge and experience is appreciated. You are a real asset to this forum and those who wish to deal with fact.
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Tom Hicks » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:36 pm

Can a Model T engine and transmission, newly rebuilt by a professional, with a SCAT Stroker crank, Stipe cam, Prus head, all balanced and built first class with no shortcuts be run at 1900 RPM safely?

My question is to professional engine builders and those who truly know, is a professionally built and balanced engine and transmission like I described above safe to run at 1900 RPM?
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:41 pm

Can a Model T engine and transmission, newly rebuilt by a professional, with a SCAT Stroker crank, Stipe cam, Prus head, all balanced and built first class with no shortcuts be run at 1900 RPM safely?
You've asked this question at least 7-8 times in two threads. You've stated that you've found two engine rebuilders who you'd work with who will build the engine to your specs. You've also stated that you plan to drive the car daily at 55-60MPH and have had a plethora of people tell you that it would be a bad idea to expect longevity from the car under these conditions. Clearly, you're uninterested and possibly not used to being told "no", so go have the engine built and come back and report your success in a year or so. At that point, you'll be the expert on the subject, and will be able to teach us a thing or two about it. The "500" crew accomplishes this through intimate knowledge of mechanics, secrets of speed, super tuning, understanding the dynamics and limitations of every aspect of their car (and it's more than just the engine that gains them the edge and speed), timing, carburetion (even with an NH) and a very specific year/model of T.

Other than to feed some sort of confirmation bias, what are you hoping to accomplish by continually asking the same question in the face of quite consistent answers?
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Tom Hicks » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:51 pm

Scott_conger wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:41 pm
Can a Model T engine and transmission, newly rebuilt by a professional, with a SCAT Stroker crank, Stipe cam, Prus head, all balanced and built first class with no shortcuts be run at 1900 RPM safely?
You've asked this question at least 7-8 times in two threads. You've stated that you've found two engine rebuilders who you'd work with who will build the engine to your specs. You've also stated that you plan to drive the car daily at 55-60MPH and have had a plethora of people tell you that it would be a bad idea to expect longevity from the car under these conditions. Clearly, you're uninterested and possibly not used to being told "no", so go have the engine built and come back and report your success in a year or so. At that point, you'll be the expert on the subject, and will be able to teach us a thing or two about it. The "500" crew accomplishes this through intimate knowledge of mechanics, secrets of speed, super tuning, understanding the dynamics and limitations of every aspect of their car (and it's more than just the engine that gains them the edge and speed), timing, carburetion (even with an NH) and a very specific year/model of T.

Other than to feed some sort of confirmation bias, what are you hoping to accomplish by continually asking the same question in the face of quite consistent answers?
And now, maybe someone with credibility could say that Mr. Conger is correct.
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by StanHowe » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:04 pm

One of my favorite memories from the few years I raced was the guy who showed up with a big motorhome, a big trailer behind it, coveralls with all sorts of patches on them from various race tracks, etc., etc., who "came to show the boys how to make a Model T run." He left at noon the first day or maybe at the first check point after lunch, he was running about 20th out of 25 cars, faster than me but slower than most. He just turned around and headed back to the motel and when we got back he was gone. HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE! Run what you bring but leave the braggin for later is, generally speaking, good advice for people that think they can and will out run a Model T doing close to 80 down a hill with a curve and a bridge at the bottom of it. Or floating along at 55 on a flat stretch of road. Or ...........................

=)

My deal is, if you got it bring it. Show up and show 'em. I don't race and haven't for several years but there are plenty of guys and girls that do.

Kind of like running your mouth in a Butte bar. Somebody in there will be more than willing to check your tough.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Tom Hicks » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:44 pm

Well, here is what I am saying: a professionally rebuilt Model T engine done first class with a Scat Stroker crank, Stipe cam, Prus head, aluminum pistons, stainless valves etc. will run all day long at 1900 RPM.

There are those who disagree. Do they know what they are talking about, or are they just posting?

But, are there any engine professional engine builders who disagree?

Mr. Conger seems to follow me around on different threads on different subjects trying to be disagreeable, and he even offered to "ignore" me at one point. I wish he would.

But for now I have a simple question, will an engine built like I specified run safely at 1900 RPM? And I appreciate answers from those who know through experience, not just those who like to post BS.

And yes, I do have two rebuilders who say they will do it.
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:05 am

Wow, the Montana 500 results are amazing! 54 mph average speeds. Apparently 50 mph average has been going on since the 1960's. It seems as though there are stalwarts that show up year after year to compete. Remarkable.

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:10 am

And yes, I do have two rebuilders who say they will do it.

So do it. I've been told by one professional rebuilder that running at high speeds is not good for a Model T engine. Maybe you can prove him wrong. :)
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by StanHowe » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:25 am

Herm, you built a couple engines for Dennis Powers, he was pretty competitive as I recall.
2000 rpm. What kind of reliability you think??


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Bill Mullins » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:41 am

I sold Dennis Powers the car he drove and a extra engine.I drove the car in 2 Montana 500's,the engines & car I personally built.Me and Dennis talked many times about our cars as far as I know the engine crank, babbitt,bearings,cam were as I installed them no take up on the bearings.Thanks to Rick Carnegie machine work.Dennis won the 500 in 2017.I ran a tach in that car and it read 2800 about 68/70 mph at 2000 rpm your cruising at 50 mph.Montana 500 cars are some of the safest T's on the the road.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Rich Bingham » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:48 am

If you really want to be safe, don't get out of bed in the morning. Even then, you're taking your chances . . . :o
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by StanHowe » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:35 pm

Bill, I stand corrected. Sorry. I believe it was Dennis Daken Herm built the engine for, not Dennis Powers.
If I had thought I would have known you built that Powers engine.
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by StanHowe » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:37 pm

StanHowe wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:35 pm
Bill, I stand corrected. Sorry. I believe it was Dennis Daken Herm built the engine for, not Dennis Powers.
If I had thought I would have known you built that Powers engine.
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by SurfCityGene » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:04 pm

It's been well documented and recorded by many guys driving their T's with an ETimer at RPM's over 2500. The max I recorded with my '12 Torpedo in it's memory chip was 2795 RPM which was traveling South on a very smooth stretch of the 5 frwy with light traffic. I don't normally ever drive that fast but generally feel lots safer on the freeway cruising at 45 to 55 depending on traffic speeds and road conditions.

The Team Green Montana 500 car I drive feels very stable and safe at freeway speeds. These cars are driven daily but maintained at a very high level and inspected thoroughly, then meticulously before the next race.

YMMV
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Derek Kiefer » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:15 pm

1900rpm is only 46mph. That's no problem at all with a balanced crank and professionally built engine. Still very smooth and quiet at that point, and not laboring the engine at all. Mine is smoother and quieter at that speed than a stock unbalanced T engine at 35mph. Mine starts to run a little hotter up over 50mph, but the stock muffler is choking it at that speed.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Dean Kiefer » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:44 pm

Is it true the "500" cars run at low oil level for more power?


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by modeltmick » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:15 pm

Speed costs money in more ways than one!!!!!



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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Rob » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:45 pm

Wonder what this guy would say about driving a Ford so fast?
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by SurfCityGene » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:45 pm

Dean, Yes, that is one "secret" that has been used. But I've heard that one driver was a little LOW so you know how that went... it's better, IMHO, to run a lighter weight oil than low level. Everything has a risk but the goal is to finish.
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by VowellArt » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:27 pm

I've never understood the need for speed, especially in a Model T (that's what a modern car is for). I have hit 40mph before going down Foothill Blvd (my wife clocked me in the modern), that's a long straight shot and yes, braking was a consideration (which is why I started a full two blocks before the bloody signal light I wanted. But I have never had the desire on the whole to travel faster than 35mph. I know the speedster guys would disagree, but then I don't really care much for speedsters either, although they are interesting to look at, they're just not a concept I understand the reasoning behind is all, they are not why or what I drive a Model T for. I enjoy just toddling along watching the scenery go by in no particular hurry, just me and the old girl rolling through the countryside. Traffic though requires a different set of skills, you're always on alert, watching every other bozo on the road with you and if you even see his front wheels turn slightly in my direction I start stopping, just in case. Only once have I been run off the road and that was on PCH 1 when George Clipner and I were on our way to a memorial and some stupid ditz cut me off and to keep from becoming an accessory to his compact car, I went for a full panic stop (any two pedals and the emergency brake) even then I had to turn into a driveway and up on a sidewalk before I got her to stop, I was only doing 30mph too. Model T has no real stopping power over 15 to 20mph, mainly because the tires are so skinny, but also because even though you can account for the "traction factor" you're omitting to consider inertia, multiply size and weight of car divided by thickness of tread equals the Model T will take it under advisement and let you know...maybe. Which is why I rely more on engine compression for stopping than those weak sauce brakes.

My car is as stock a Model T as I like it to be, she's an early 1922 touring with a 1914 low head, does 35mph just fine and gets 21.7mpg doing it and I'm happy with that...I'll get there when I get there and not before. ;)
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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Joe Voller » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:15 pm

I may not have a running T right now but I sure hope to learn how to get 50 + MPH out of it. I very seldom drive my A at 50 but having the option to run a t at that speed if necessary would be a nice option on those rare occasions. I know most of the time 35 is a great speed to see the world at.


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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Tom_Carnegie » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:47 pm

"I've never understood the need for speed"

It's how you win the Montana 500.

Isn't a good running T better than a crappy running T?

Does everyone understand that a T that will go 50 mph will also go 35?

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Hap_Tucker » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:15 am

Summary: Would someone please confirm which magazine ("The Vintage Ford" or other) and which date (or vol and number)? OK and maybe I need a page number also?

Additional details:

I've looked in both the Jan-Feb 2019 and the Mar-Apr 2019 "The Vintage Ford" and I haven't found the article. I've enjoyed the thread and was reminded that I should have kept the 1956 36 hp VW bus that I paid $65 for back in the sixties -- but if I had done that they probably would not have appreciated as much.

It sounds like some of the changes discussed would be helpful to any T at any speed.

Thanks for pointing me in the correct direction.

Respectfully submitted,

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Fordfarm » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:05 am

Latest tissue. Kind of a "coming attractions" article.

VF Vol 54, Number 2 Page 20

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Re: MTFCA Magazine Article on 50 mph...

Post by Hap_Tucker » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:34 pm

Phil,

Thank you so much! I had missed that article. And it was good that you included the page number -- I almost missed it again. I am looking forward to what they share in the future. Not that I will necessarily be going that fast, but that some of those items may help my own T to be more reliable and to last longer.

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