setting up coils on car?

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jeff10049
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setting up coils on car?

Post by jeff10049 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:27 pm

I have read the never-ending debate of what coil set up device works best so I don't want to start another one of those discussions.

It seems the goal is to get them firing at the same time so that cylinder to cylinder timing is correct and drawing close to the correct amps.

Why could you not set the amps with a buzz box to get them close and then just use a timing light with a mark and pointer on the pully? I have an advance light so I could set two then set the light 180 degrees and set two more.
Or just move each coil to number one in the box and set them all the same if you don't have an adjustable light. I see no reason this wouldn't work if you set all the coils to be on your mark they are firing at the same time no exceptions. And it would also account for any differences elsewhere in the system. (if you left them in their respective locations of course)

Just thinking about a way that a T owner could properly or very closely set coils without one of the tools or sending them out sometimes I just like to do stuff on my own.

Am I missing something?

Jeff


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:12 pm

Jeff

I am trying to not come across as harsh, but I suspect it will, anyway, so please do not construe my response as being mean-spirited, because it is not intended to be. Without going into the "method" debate, I have to believe that you did not really digest what each camp considers important, or what the designers considered important, or what the proponents of TTF (Time to fire) crowd consider important.

You cannot guarantee a single spark is thrown when using a buzz box equipped with an ammeter, so you really do not know when the cylinder will fire...does it throw one or two sparks with each pulse? if two, are either of the two diminished sparks going to fire the fuel mixture at all? So, the buzz box will not definitely deliver a good coil using amperage, or "the old way".

Since the TTF method is timing the firing of the coil (ramp to fire time) in m/sec, simply turning the engine over and making sure each coil buzzes at the same crank location will not set a coil to "the new way". This assumes a mechanically and functionally "perfect" timer (which is nearly an impossibility) and introduces a variable into the firing sequence not incorporated with the "old way". You are looking for a matched set of 4 coils without respect to the timer's vaguarities and this won't do it.

I think you need to re-read some of the posts - both camps, and better understand what a T owner would WANT a coil to do and I think you'll eventually see that your proposed method, which can make a non-functioning car run, will not likely create a car which will run at its best.

I see you're new to the forum, so welcome, and don't take my response as a hit, but simply more info for you to chew on.
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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Luke » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:24 pm

Jeff,

A 'buzz box' is an extremely crude way of setting average current, marginally above doing it by ear I guess, but it certainly won't allow you to conflate ramp times amongst coils in conjunction with current & checking for double-spark etc.

In order to address some of this, as I understand it, you're suggesting the use of a timing light to set individual coil timing? In principle it would be possible, however there are significant practical issues that might become pretty ordinary after a short time, if you were to try.

These include; gear lash, timer irregularities, coil irregularities, and measurement error. In other words the T ignition system (and by system I include all the components, mechanical as well) is by nature imprecise, and you're also reliant upon the eye as ultimate arbiter. If you wanted to set coils with a reasonable degree of accuracy then this, as a measurement system, is not at all ideal.

You'd also have a fair amount of physical work to do, and it's unclear to me how a modern inductive trigger timing light would respond to the output of a T coil. I'm not necessarily suggesting they won't work, I've simply never tried one and my initial thoughts, knowing something of their design, is that they might not like it - perhaps you've had some experience you can pass on?

Ultimately I'm not sure you'd gain a lot from this approach, other than spending some (hopefully enjoyable) time experimenting. Given my comments you might also level the obvious criticism that there's no point in setting coils accurately if there are other anomalies in the system, but then you did say you weren't wanting to start another debate... ;)

Luke.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Luke » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:27 pm

Scott,

I suspect we started typing at the same time, but you're faster than me :-)

Anyway, quite agree, well said - including that our responses are much more by way of light discussion than any frowning return 👍

Luke.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by jab35 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:29 pm

I suggest starting with 4 correctly set up and adjusted coils (verified by HCCT, or ECCT, or Stroboscope) and then perform the test you suggest to see how far 'off' the cylinder to cylinder timing really is. With four correctly adjusted coils your solution may in fact be seeking to solve a problem that does not exist. I respect your approach, your technique should show how much, if any, time to fire variation exists in the ignition system when all 4 coils are set to the same precise standards. As you probably know, some advocate exclusively for using time to fire criteria for setting up coils, but I have never seen data from an actual test in a running model T that confirmed coils set using ttf values were any different (or 'better') than those using Ford's recommended AC current settings and a HCCT to produce uniform plug firing times in all 4 cylinders. YMMV, please post your results and you go forward with this, respectfully, jb


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:53 pm

There are so many variables that it is hard to say exactly which method or methods work the best, however, I would say if you have a cranked coil tester or a strobospark or E coil tester, use it. If however, you don't want the expense of the instrument for your one or two T's, then there are other methods which work very well. The only way to know for sure would be to test the car on exactly the same conditions after each method is used. One would be how long it takes to get from a stop to cruising speed on the same road, hill climbing, and top speed. Assuming the same car with exactly the same load.
Other variables are the condition of the magneto, the condition of the coil box and wiring, ignition switch and timer.
So unless you are trying to reach an endurance record, or speed record, my method works well.
I use a buzz box. I use an analog ohmmeter to check condenser discharge and use new or cleaned up points.
Then I use an analog ammeter to check current at time of spark and examine for a hot spark. I can use this buzz box on battery, and also switch to magneto on a running car to make these tests.
Then my final test is to place it in the car and see how it runs. If it runs smoothly and starts easily, If it pulls hills well, then I am satisfied.
Remember this: even a properly tuned coil on a testing device, will fail if you accidently bump the points, so be very careful storing and handling your coils.
Norm

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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:16 pm

Jeff listen to the guys and save yourself some grief. The ONLY way to properly set up coils is with a coil tester. Wether it be the newer electronic types or the old standby the HCCT. My personal experience only involved the HCCT and the results are always amazing. I too went the buzz box route and even sold a few on e-bay. I don’t have one now and wouldn’t bother with one if I did. Using one is like pulling the cylinder head without taking compression tests. It tells you exactly nothing.
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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Art M » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:44 pm

This is an interesting subject to me and I have some unusual opinions about coil tuning. Keep in mind that some like to polish brass and others like to tinker. My opinions do not apply to Montana 500 applications.

1. Timing variation between cylinders are not near as critical as many believe.

2. I set the coil current with a buzz box using a special ammeter. It is the only one I found that works for this task. After setting the current on several coils, I checked them with a hand crank tester and got nearly perfect correlation.
My ammeter is part of my capacitor testing meter. My son gave it to me for Christmas in 2016.
I don't understand the different types of ammeters. Maybe someone out there can explain the types.

3. My son gave me a fancy timing light a year later. I used this to check the dwell. I like about 5 milliseconds. The dwell can be measured in the car running on battery.or on a setup in the drill press. I have never checked dwell with my oscilloscope.

4. Keep in mind that old information indicates that a model t engine requires 10,000 volts to start. This must be done by the coil with a supply voltage of maybe 4.5 volts, which allows for some voltage loses on a 6 volt battery.

If the cushion has some gap, supplying 4.5 volts to the buzz box, the coil should throw a spark across a gap of .125 inch.
I am currently checking this out.

5. My car has buzz box coils and gets over 20 mile per gallon. I am happy with my results.

More thoughts will be coming. Pease keep this topic as Mr. Conger wants to keep it. This is not exactly a MMO topic.

Art Mirtes

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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by dykker5502 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:05 pm

You all seems to think DC, but when the model T runs on the magneto it runs on AC and what triggers the coil to fire is NOT the timer, but the top or bottom of the AC wave! The magneto produces 16 sparks per revolution as you see on the HCCT and the timer picks which of the 16 sparks you actually use to fire the engine (actually the timer allows for one more spark 22,5 degrees later!).
Each coil then has a dwell from where it is triggered by the AC top or bottom until it actually sparks and that have to be the same on each coil. Then you have a very precise ignition on your car. And this is why a set of proper tuned coils works so much better on magneto than on battery (among other things).
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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Art M » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:42 pm

My battery tuned coils run better on the mag than on battery which is exactly what I expect.

Keep in mind that the current is the same whether using batteries with my set up or using a magneto on a HCCT. I use 3 D size flashlight batteries.

The dwell is checked more easily checked with dc power.
I am hoping someone can explain why my ammeter works for this application when all of my other ammeter do not.

Art M


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Poppie » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:33 pm

dykker5502,
Michael, You seem to be the only other Model T person to know how the T ignition system works (Trembler coils and Magneto). I do query your statement where you say that the coil fires on top and or bottom of the wave form. I would say somewhere on the voltage ramp up either V+ and down V- and that would depend on coil current setting to set the piston position to fire, unlike the TTF system for battery operated system.
Art M.
Your ammeter differences may be caused by meter design, that is, Moving coil or Moving iron.
Be safe....Neil.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:47 pm

Perhaps one of the only two people who know how the Model T Ignition system works would take the time to answer the OP's actual questions and enlighten the rest of us mere mortals along the way. :?
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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by MKossor » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:40 pm

The OP proposes a very logical and straight forward approach to adjusting coils in car for optimal overall engine performance. All variables contributing to ignition timing variation are present (spark plug gap, timer housing to CAM misalignment, timer contact to timer contact variation, and of course, coil points) so adjusting each coil points for the same crank shaft TDC firing position would in effect result in optimal ignition timing and engine performance. What can go wrong? Like I said in the Voltage Regulator thread, The concept is very simple but the devil is in the details. The Model T ignition system makes for a very noisy electrical environment to begin with which can wreak havoc on the operation of an electronic timing light causing false or multiple triggers that obscure the optical ignition timing indication. Coils with unknown point adjustment can suffer from a host of malfunctions that may reliably trigger a timing light but do so inconsistently. For example, it may be very difficult to zero in on the optimal cushion spring tension that yields Excellent firing consistency when electrical noise is causing random or inconsistent timing light firing. These are some of the observations I made while researching a good method for adjusting Model T coils. Its the conclusion I came to but Perhaps messed up or overlooked something so by all means Experiment! Draw your own conclusions.

The topic of Model T coil adjustment methods really need not be a touchy subject, just stick to the basic facts.
1. The Model T engine is a spark ignition internal combustion engine
2. Spark ignition internal combustion engine performance largely depends on proper and consistent spark timing with respect to piston position
3. Model T coil point adjustment is a significant factor in determining when spark fires and how consistently spark fires at that given time
4. Adjusting Model T coil points for equal and consistent firing time helps to minimize cylinder to cylinder timing variation with respect to piston position.

Popular methods of adjusting Model T coil points for equal and consistent firing time
1. Measure the average RMS current flowing the primary coil winding while firing spark continuously when powered by Battery (DC) or Magneto (AC) typically operating at abnormally low engine speed
2. Measure the precise dwell time it takes the coil to ramp up and fire The first spark responsible for initiating combustion when powered by a rapid pulse of electricity that emulates magneto output at high engine RPM where ignition timing is most critical. Measure how consistently the coil dwell time to fire spark is.

Each coil point adjustment method has its advantages and disadvantages.
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jeff10049
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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by jeff10049 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:13 am

MKossor wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:40 pm
The OP proposes a very logical and straight forward approach to adjusting coils in car for optimal overall engine performance. All variables contributing to ignition timing variation are present (spark plug gap, timer housing to CAM misalignment, timer contact to timer contact variation, and of course, coil points) so adjusting each coil points for the same crank shaft TDC firing position would in effect result in optimal ignition timing and engine performance. What can go wrong? Like I said in the Voltage Regulator thread, The concept is very simple but the devil is in the details. The Model T ignition system makes for a very noisy electrical environment to begin with which can wreak havoc on the operation of an electronic timing light causing false or multiple triggers that obscure the optical ignition timing indication. Coils with unknown point adjustment can suffer from a host of malfunctions that may reliably trigger a timing light but do so inconsistently. For example, it may be very difficult to zero in on the optimal cushion spring tension that yields Excellent firing consistency when electrical noise is causing random or inconsistent timing light firing. These are some of the observations I made while researching a good method for adjusting Model T coils. Its the conclusion I came to but Perhaps messed up or overlooked something so by all means Experiment! Draw your own conclusions.

The topic of Model T coil adjustment methods really need not be a touchy subject, just stick to the basic facts.
1. The Model T engine is a spark ignition internal combustion engine
2. Spark ignition internal combustion engine performance largely depends on proper and consistent spark timing with respect to piston position
3. Model T coil point adjustment is a significant factor in determining when spark fires and how consistently spark fires at that given time
4. Adjusting Model T coil points for equal and consistent firing time helps to minimize cylinder to cylinder timing variation with respect to piston position.

Popular methods of adjusting Model T coil points for equal and consistent firing time
1. Measure the average RMS current flowing the primary coil winding while firing spark continuously when powered by Battery (DC) or Magneto (AC) typically operating at abnormally low engine speed
2. Measure the precise dwell time it takes the coil to ramp up and fire The first spark responsible for initiating combustion when powered by a rapid pulse of electricity that emulates magneto output at high engine RPM where ignition timing is most critical. Measure how consistently the coil dwell time to fire spark is.

Each coil point adjustment method has its advantages and disadvantages.

Thank you this is the type of response I am looking for (I do also appreciate all of the other responses as well)
I think some of you misunderstood my buzz box statement that would only be to baseline the coils and know I'm not starting with a coil way way out of current range I probably should not have mentioned that step.

RE Scott, You're not coming across as harsh at all but I think I may not have explained my proposed method well enough. I absolutely understand the model t coil in both ac and dc operation electronics are not a mystery to me. I would not be turning the engine by hand and buzzing the coils this test would be the engine running on mag. With the timing light telling me exactly when one coil fires in relation to another provided the timing light will put up with a T coil.

Luke, The irregularity of the system including mechanical that you list are actually my very reason for thinking this might be a good method of setting coils if all the coils are equal but the car has mechanical errors those errors could then be tuned out with on car tuning will it make a difference who knows? mostly, I was just looking at an option that is as good not necessarily better that a guy can do without a coil tool or sending them out.

I appreciate all the responses I think my question of what am I missing was answered. In that, the timing light may or may not handle the T ignition system I have a nice light with noise filtering so I may hook it up tomorrow and just see how it strobes if it looks good on each coil I don't see what I have to lose by setting up a mark and see how accurate they are set up. one of them got points installed with pliers with the gap set to my discover card in the dark at a parade two nights ago runs ok but can't be right.

If the timing light will work ill play around with this and keep you updated if it doesn't I will send my coils out or by a device to set them up.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:50 am

I have used an inexpensive inductive timing light on a '27 T and it seemed to work fine as far as showing the timing marks a low engine speeds. I hooked it up to the 6 volt T system the same way as to any other. I doubt if it was ever intended to be used on a 6 V system, but it seemed to work normally.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Been Here Before » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:06 am

You can set the coils by ear if needed. The T came from a time when controlled computerization of ignition was still science fiction. Not every one could own a HCCT. The buzz box tester was simple and efficient enough to keep the T and related cars using the induction coil ignition running. Unfortunately, in the 20/21 century everything HAS to be controlled by a microchip and a program.

Reading the literature of the period, suggestions are made to have a professional with a HCCT set the coils. Do you really think the survival of the Model T was because every one was able to visit a dealer with proper ignition test equipment?

Those that were written about in the Grapes of Wrath, made it across the continent with out fancy coil testing equipment. And the cars that traveled around the world, say the Thomas Flyer, how was the ignition set, say in Siberia?

If you have the money buy a HCCT or better yet spend it on a microchip electronic tester. :lol:
752880buzz.jpg

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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by MKossor » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:44 am

You also don't need any dang fancy modern technology gadgets to measure timed events either. You can still use anyone of these simple and efficient, environmentally friendly and 100% solar powered time pieces.
Sundial Wrist Watches.JPG
My point is: It all depends upon what you consider adequate performance which you are satisfied with is the only criteria that really matters.
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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Art M » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:12 pm

Neil,
Thanks for explaining the difference in ammeters. How can each type be identified.

Bottom line to all of this is

1. A timing light of your choice can be used to measure the difference between cylinders.

2 Current can be set by your choice. I am still working on more primitive methods to reduce the cost of equipment.

3. Has anyone conducted a blind test using several cars in order to get a fair analysis. I don't have an instrumented method to evaluate, just have to use a personal feel, which is what we want to begin with.

IT IS YOUR CHOICE and IT IS YOUR OPINION

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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:04 pm

I believe that a Model T is particularly sensitive to uneven/erratic ignition timing between cylinders due to its very limber crankshaft. Early or late firing cylinders and combinations thereof can add additional torsional vibration under some conditions, enhancing engine and driveline noise and vibration, besides degrading engine performance, efficiency, and smoothness. A T will certainly operate with timing, fuel mixture, vlave clearances, and other adjustments well out of the desired range, but they will run much smoother, more efficiently, and longer the closer to ideal these adjustments can be held.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:06 pm

A lot of electrical parameters change with engine speed with a T ignition system, especially running on magneto.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Poppie » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:13 pm

TXGOAT2.
Pat, You have been accepted as being one of three persons knowing the functions of the Model T ignition/magneto system. I would also include a variation of applied voltage to the coils in your statement....Neil..


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by speedytinc » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:16 pm

Art M wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:44 pm
This is an interesting subject to me and I have some unusual opinions about coil tuning. Keep in mind that some like to polish brass and others like to tinker. My opinions do not apply to Montana 500 applications.

1. Timing variation between cylinders are not near as critical as many believe.

2. I set the coil current with a buzz box using a special ammeter. It is the only one I found that works for this task. After setting the current on several coils, I checked them with a hand crank tester and got nearly perfect correlation.
My ammeter is part of my capacitor testing meter. My son gave it to me for Christmas in 2016.
I don't understand the different types of ammeters. Maybe someone out there can explain the types.

3. My son gave me a fancy timing light a year later. I used this to check the dwell. I like about 5 milliseconds. The dwell can be measured in the car running on battery.or on a setup in the drill press. I have never checked dwell with my oscilloscope.

4. Keep in mind that old information indicates that a model t engine requires 10,000 volts to start. This must be done by the coil with a supply voltage of maybe 4.5 volts, which allows for some voltage loses on a 6 volt battery.

If the cushion has some gap, supplying 4.5 volts to the buzz box, the coil should throw a spark across a gap of .125 inch.
I am currently checking this out.

5. My car has buzz box coils and gets over 20 mile per gallon. I am happy with my results.

More thoughts will be coming. Pease keep this topic as Mr. Conger wants to keep it. This is not exactly a MMO topic.

Art Mirtes
"Montana 500 applications" should be exactly what we are striving for in our T's. Its not hard to get coils to buzz & make a T run. Its another thing to get a T to run well. Its magnitudes bigger to get that T to run its optimal, possible best. These guys are running 70mph, stock gearing. If they would only release those secrets. I have been fortunate to get some tips from one of these guys & get my T to run really well. Start by eliminating all the variables possible. (timing cover, timer, cam movement, etc.) Coil box connections. New, correct caps. All this stuff should be addressed before concentrating on coil firing. So you CAN concentrate on the coils only.

I would love to get a set of "perfectly" tuned coils in my hands. I dont think such a set exists. In theory one should be able to tune 4 to match, passing all tests. Amp draw & firing time. Hats off to those that can & do. I seem to be chasing my tail & get lucky sometimes.

My first set of coils was set HCCT. All specked out, 1.3a, single spark. Then I reset with an ECCT. Ran better, smoother, picked up another 8 mph. Not looking to debate which setting method works best. In my case the ECCT was better.
Problem? is now the amp draw is all over the place between the 4 coils. 1.3-1.6 amp. Thats with a firing accuracy of 93-100%
I will say the sparking @ a slow crank in the tester down to 2V amazes me.
Is the answer to use both methods to get 4 coils tuned the same? Maybe compromising on the firing time for amp draw consistency? TTF off 1-2 degrees is negligible. Or ECCT and an accurate ammeter.

Final in car test with a timing light shows very consistent firing on each cylinder. (12V external battery powered light)

Battery VS magneto performance. In my experience. Typically a good magneto will run way better than 6V. occasionally an 8V will run as good. That may be specific to the coil tune & a <30V mag. My T runs equally well on 12v VS magneto.(35V). I typically run on battery for the infinite spark control VS 3 or 4 optimal nodes.

So for the OP. Could one set a coil for a crisp buzz with a 1.3 amp draw & check with a timing light on a running motor? Why not? You would want a degreed pulley Watching for jumps in consistent timing. Wouldnt this essentially do the same as an ECCT, only cruder? Hard to read 2-3 degree timing deviation.

Try it. Let us know. I am interested. Always looking to expand my limited coil knowledge.

Please excuse my ignorance, I am not well seasoned on stock model T ignition systems & generally an electronics idiot, but trying to figure it out.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:18 pm

It's my opinion that matching amp draw is secondary to getting the firing time matched as closely as possible across the engine's RPM range. I would expect a set of coils in good condition and adjusted to match firing time would have no more than .1 or .2 amp variance in amp draw under identical conditions. From what I've seen, trying to match the audio buzz among a set of coils does not give good results. Another variable among the many variables affecting coil operation might arise if all the magnets in a set on a magneto were not of the same strength. I suspect that that is a common condition. The air gap between the magnets and each of the winding cores would also need to be consistent for each "wave" of current from the magneto to be identical.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:26 pm

I don't know what the value tolerance on modern capacitors suitable for use in a T coil is, but a lot of electronic components used to have a 10% of nominal value tolerance. Variations in capacitor value and in point performance could account for variations in current draw in a well adjusted coil. With some very old coils still in service, and a few newer ones, and from various manufacturers, I'd expect some variation in the electromagnetic characteristics of the coil windings, especially the secondary, to be very common.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Luke » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:49 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:16 pm

I would love to get a set of "perfectly" tuned coils in my hands. I dont think such a set exists. In theory one should be able to tune 4 to match, passing all tests. Amp draw & firing time. Hats off to those that can & do. I seem to be chasing my tail & get lucky sometimes.
John,

I would think that it'd be almost impossible to find a collection of original coils that exhibit exactly the same characteristics?

Perhaps those that work on T coils regularly might have a better idea but as I understand it these things were effectively hand made by many different people over several shifts each week. In addition to anomalies introduced by these variables there'd likely be supply and possibly some design changes over the period as well.

If you were lucky enough to get a set consecutively wound by the same person on the same day with the same spool of wire for each winding you might find something close as far as the actual coil is concerned, then you'd need to ensure four points from the same batch etc...

That said, with the 60+ million of these that would have been produced there'd no doubt be a few near enough to the same. If you were to take what you could get, match the relative inductances as best as possible, then electronically fire them (ie. do away with the points), you might come close to a 'perfect' output from a set of four. Could be interesting to try - electronic points anyone? :geek:

Luke.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:44 pm

It might be possible to match a set of coil secondaries to a particular inductance or inductive resonance by selecting from a range of capacitors with a capacitance value somewhat more than or less than the specified value or adding a variable capacitor to permit adjusting the circuit characterisitics to a very specific value.
But it seems that adjusting point gap and spring tension get you to about the same place. A lot of inductive devices have some sort of trimmer or pad device to fine tune inductive charcteristics.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by jeff10049 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:49 am

Everyone seems to be on to what I was suggesting, cool I did try a timing light today I didn't try it on the 6volt I just hooked it to my 12volt jump box as a power source. It worked fine I made a quick mark on the pully and it was very steady. I did not set up a pointer yet so did not check consistency between them.
Re, the 360 degree wheel or pully marks would be great but I have an adjustable light so no need, and it's easy to see a 1-degree change. It sounds like some folks have done this test already.
It looks like this will work I want to say again I'm not trying to look for a better way just another way that I or anyone else can set these up without an HCCT or other device and get as good of a performance as the folks that do have an HCCT or other device.

I agree that amps will most likely NOT be equal if firing time is, and if amps are set equal the coils will likely NOT fire at the same time even on the mag it will still fire a little sooner or later in relation to the peak.
I have no idea if any of this makes any notable difference to the average owner it doesn't really matter to me I just want to get my coils as close as any of the other methods considered good.
But if you are looking for the best performance then setting the coils with a light is starting to look like the best way. As mkossor said it takes all variables into account.

One cool thing I did observe and makes perfect sense is that on mag as amplitude and frequency increase the coil fires sooner thereby advancing timing with engine rpm I was eyeballing the mark so not sure how much I will do some more accurate testing later but it's kind of neat.

I had read opinions about the mechanical limitations of the coil preventing this I'm sure at a point they do but I observed at least a few degrees of advance.
One thing putting a timing light on it does is show you exactly what is happening regardless of opinions.
Next I will install a pointer and give this a go.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Poppie » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:25 am

Jeff10049,
Jeffrey, You are correct re the advanced fire point of a few degrees but they also retard a few also.
I find the point of fire varies with engine RPM and or HCCT RPM and the coil current setting.
The thing to learn is how to adjust the coils and on what device to suit your needs, be it Montana driving or touring and I feel that it can only be done on a HCCT and now maybe your way with the light.. Neil.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by jab35 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:53 am

Jeff: Good report, glad it's working.

One favor I'd request is that once you have 4 coils set up and adjusted, is that you switch coils around in the coil box (End coils to middle, middle two to the ends of box) and recheck the timing. I've always wondered how the steel coil box affects the magnetic field of the coil and hence the current, coils at the end of the box have steel against the edge and side, those in the middle one edge only.

And there is the usual question, now that you have discovered and perfected the 'Gold Standard' for setting Model T coils, how far 'off' are the former standards (Coil Current and Time to fire)? This could easily be determined by checking with HCCT or ECCT, but it's an academic pursuit as once you have achieved 'gold standard' performance why would anyone care how closely the previous standards came to winning Gold?

Great work, thanks for sharing, jb


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:22 am

I think most anyone can appreciate a really "sweet running" T, once having experienced driving one. Model Ts do not have horsepower to spare, nor do they isolate the driver and passengers from engine vibration, noise, poor throttle response, and generally poor performance. Maximizing total engine performance in a stock or near stock Model T maximizes driving enjoyment and safety while promoting fuel economy and maximum durability of the entire vehicle. I'm confident that the best coil adjusting device available today is the ECCT. If you have acess to one, there is nothing to be gained by applying other methods or devices once you have obtained a good adjustment using the ECCT. If you are blessed with a good HCCT or one of the other devices in good order, you can expect to be able to achieve a yet more accurate adjustment of your coils by using an ECCT AFTER having obtained the best adjustment possible using your HCCT or other device.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Art M » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:53 am

Jeffery,
I am happy to hear that you had success with your timing light on your model t.

When I was using the timing light to check spark timing, I was interested in determining the dwell time. This required running on battery and checking the timing change at two different engine speeds, such as 600 rpm and 1200 rpm.

Arithmetic shows that a 2 millisecond dwell results in a 7.2 degree change at a 600 rpm difference .

For example, if the spark at 600 rpm is at 10 degrees before top dead center (BTDC), the spark at 1200 rpm will be at 2.8 degrees BTDC.

It takes work to get all four coils to have equal dwell. This is what the ECCT does. I would like to try ECCT tuned coils to see the difference. I am still interested in a blind test. Only one car would need to be tested, the only one that counts....mine.

Art


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Art M » Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:00 am

I should have said 2.8 degrees at 600 rpm and 10 degrees at 1200 rpm

Art Mirtes


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by jeff10049 » Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:59 pm

Jab35, I don't know and this is any kind of a gold standard and I certainly don't take credit for discovering it I'm sure plenty of people have played around with this maybe they just have not posted it in a forum. You do bring up another variable I hadn't considered the steel coil box. I had planned on switching the coils around to see what variations might be present in other parts of the engine like the timer that you would probably only see on DC operation. Or higher resistance wiring to one of the coils causing slower current rise time things like that. Now if I find variations the question will be is the coil box causing any of it I kind of doubt it but then again we are dealing with electromagnets in a steel box so it's certainly plausible. Do one and two or four and three suffer any effects of inductance from their neighboring coil that just fired? Obviously at some point we're splitting hairs and it doesn't matter but it's fun to talk about.

I have the model t stored in a different location for winter as being a Depot it doesn't clear the header of my garage at home so I haven't been over there to play with it the last day or so and I've been distracted by my new project a 1911 hupmobile but I will get back to playing with the T coils and I plan on making a video of how it all goes.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:05 pm

One thing I don't think has been brought up is the spark plugs. They all need to be clean and have equal gap. If one gap is closer than another it could cause a short difference in the time which the plugs fired, however, the wider gap might have a hotter spark. This would be most noticeable at slow speeds and pulling under load when the compression is highest.
Norm


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by speedytinc » Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:41 pm

Norman Kling wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:05 pm
One thing I don't think has been brought up is the spark plugs. They all need to be clean and have equal gap. If one gap is closer than another it could cause a short difference in the time which the plugs fired, however, the wider gap might have a hotter spark. This would be most noticeable at slow speeds and pulling under load when the compression is highest.
Norm
EVERYTHING, EVERY other thing involved has to be perfect. Coil box contacts, timer cover, position, condition, etc, etc.......
However by setting #1 cyl as the test station for all 4 coils, they can be set to the same, firing, draw etc. Then test all 4 cylinders individually for firing time.(degrees). Now knowing the coils are all tuned, you will be looking for any of a half dozen other possible problem spots in the system which you see by off timing or occasional "flyers" in the timing light.

Timer issues example: (some more important than others depending on the specific timer used)
Cover centered to cam. Slop in timer cover to timer body fit. Timer cover timer cut out perpendicular to cam. Timer contacts centered in timer body. Brush bounce. Spring tension. Cam end play. Contact timing.(anderson - adjustable) Smoothness of contact area.
If you have not addressed ALL the possible timer problems, you will not be able to get that accurate/consistent firing.

As an aside, last night we were able to ECCT tune a set of 4 coils to 1 degree advance with 100% Thats as perfect as it gets!! I wish I could have then tested on a HCCT for amp draw readings & Low rpm voltage firing. Its possible I will see that T this weekend to do the HCCT tests. If so, I will report the results.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Poppie » Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:42 pm

Speedytinc.
John, Re 4th line down,
"Now knowing the coils are now tuned"....Is that on a DC powered testing device?.
Re Last paragraph,
Put your DC powered(ecct) tested coils on a HCCT and you will find that y our POINT OF FIRE (POF) not TTF will vary in degrees and change while RPM, frequency and voltage changes....Neil


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Poppie » Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:43 pm

Speedytinc.
John, Re 4th line down,
"Now knowing the coils are now tuned"....Is that on a DC powered testing device?.
Re Last paragraph,
Put your DC powered(ecct) tested coils on a HCCT and you will find that y our POINT OF FIRE (POF) not TTF will vary in degrees and change while RPM, frequency and voltage changes....Neil


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by speedytinc » Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:35 pm

Poppie wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:43 pm
Speedytinc.
John, Re 4th line down,
"Now knowing the coils are now tuned"....Is that on a DC powered testing device?.
Re Last paragraph,
Put your DC powered(ecct) tested coils on a HCCT and you will find that y our POINT OF FIRE (POF) not TTF will vary in degrees and change while RPM, frequency and voltage changes....Neil
The power source goes back to the OP. Setting & testing on the T with no extra test equipment. Set & tune running on mag. Get the coils all set to the same amp draw & timing degree mark on # 1 cylinder, one @ a time. I would expect to also hear the same sharp clack sound when they fire. Attempting this tune with old varying caps would not be nearly as good(if even possible?) over a set of coils with the proper new caps.
This is an interesting theoretical experiment. Inquiring minds want to know.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:03 pm

On top of all the above, there will be a difference between running on battery or magneto. If on battery, the current will begin to flow until it sparks. The beginning of the flow will be when the rotor contacts the segment. This will vary according to the condition of the timer and rotor. Also the timer must be centered with the camshaft.
If you are running on magneto, the spark will come at one of 3 or sometimes 4 places where the timer is set by the spark lever. The actual time will be regulated by the high point of the sine wave by the magneto which is somewhere after the rotor makes contact. Either way, the exact timing is determined by the setting of the spark lever.
Norm

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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by MKossor » Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:23 am

There continues to be considerable misunderstanding of the Model T trembler coil operation and its adjustment. There are resources available to learn and understand the basics and details associated with Model T coil operation, testing and tuning. Here is a link to one I prepared for MTFCA Webinar Number 2:

https://youtu.be/RYcGD-8Ol3s?t=357

Among other topics, it covers the misconception that the Model T coil must be adjusted AC because that is what the Model T magneto produces. A fundamental misunderstanding that is completely and totally incorrect. The current through the model T coil Never reverses direction (ie alternates) while the coil is ramping up current to fire spark. The current may be of either direction through the coil for a given spark lever setting but once the spark lever is set, the coil current Never changes direction (alternates) during the ramp up to fire spark.

Another common misconception is the limitations of testing or adjusting a coil from "DC" as in the case of the TTF method. Another fundamental misunderstanding perhaps thinking operation similar t buzz box testing. The electrical stimulus applied to the coil under test is NOT steady DC voltage allowing the coil to buzz continuously as in the case of a buzz box. The TTF method begins with the coil at rest meaning No coil flowing through it at all. The test stimulus is the rapid application of fixed DC voltage. Such an abrupt change in voltage mimics a magneto pulse at very high engine RPM where ignition timing is most critical. The time it takes the coil to ramp up and fire spark is measured and displayed as a tuning metric. After firing, the coil returns to rest as it would operating in the car. This method of excitation has numerous benefits over the HCCT magneto stimulus to test and adjust coils. For example: Hand cranking the magneto results in abnormally slow voltage rise time (60-120RPM) and abnormally low voltage in which the coil and car will Never operate. The coil is never permitted to rest between firings, Averaging the current of hundreds of sparks as performance indication as opposed to measuring the precise time it takes the coil to ramp up and fire THE first spark responsible for initiating combustion starting from rest. There are other distinctions covered in the Webinar.

Yet another misconception is the comparison of coil test methods in the various testers in attempt to judge how well the coils will perform. A total and complete waste of time and effort. Like comparing apples to watermelons not oranges. The ONLY detail that really matters is how well a set of tuned coils make the Model T engine perform in the car on the road. This is the Only way to compare the performance of various coil testing and adjusting methods.

Most, if not all of these misconceptions are covered with illustrations in the Webinar for those interested in learning how the Model T coil actually functions and is adjusted for equal and consistent firing time.
I-Timer + ECCT Adjusted Coils = Best Model T Engine Performance Possible!
www.modeltitimer.com www.modeltecct.com


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:18 pm

Mike

did the only two fellows who understand hw coils operate vote you into their club? Be careful about confusing people with facts. It rarely ends well.

It must have taken considerable restraint to hold off on this thread for so long ;)
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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Been Here Before » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:22 pm

Take the mystery out of adjusting trembler coils.

Allow our experts to conjecture an outline to the trembler coil. The device called a Ruhmkorff or induction coil, widely used in the 20th century cars that came only on black. When battery power is applied, the coil acts as an electromagnet; the magnetic field from the core pulls the springy iron arm, opening the switch contacts, interrupting the primary current.
x01043092_001Witches.jpg.pagespeed.ic.ry10fAwg5u.jpg


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Art M » Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:39 pm

I agree with most of what Mr Kosser said. However, don't retire your HCCT just yet. Enhance it with a few improvements.

1. Connect a variable speed motor drive to turn the HCCT.
A member of our club motorized his about 20 years.
ago, because he just didn't want to crank by hand.

2. Add a timer to the mechanical drive and electrical circuit . This allows control to the timing of the coil input.
Drive the timer at half speed of the mag shaft.

3. Make calibration marks on the ring that the pointer.
points to.

The dwell can be determined by how much the timing changes at different speeds. Rule of thumb 600 rpm difference gives 7.2 degree spark change with a dwell of 2msec.
I believe that it is dwell match between the coils that Mr. Kosser stresses. I believe that getting the dwells to match is time consuming until you get experience.

IF you don't want to add the enhancements to your HCCT. Merely, get a fancy timing light with a built in tachometer to check and adjust the firing time using your car.. Keep in mind that I found good correlation between my buzz box current and HCCT current. The HCCT current was the standard. However, the current matching can be sacrificed when matching firing time.

I am still hoping to get one of my coil sets tuned with a ECCT and run a blind test to compare them to a set of my low budget tuned coils.

Topics like this is what makes the model t hobby interesting to me. After 100 years, development work is still going on. With this topic there should be an closer answer than the motor oil topic How close to perfection is needed or affordable. Close enough is perfect???

Art Mirtes


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by jab35 » Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:56 pm

Art: Before you set up and run the blind test, set up all coils on your HCCT and then evaluate them with the ECCT. If they fail ecct criteria, reset them and then run your blind test. I have never had a properly rebuilt and properly adjusted coil fail any of the ecct criteria. ymmv, jb


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:23 am

jab35 wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:56 pm
Art: Before you set up and run the blind test, set up all coils on your HCCT and then evaluate them with the ECCT. If they fail ecct criteria, reset them and then run your blind test. I have never had a properly rebuilt and properly adjusted coil fail any of the ecct criteria. ymmv, jb
I have done this several times. Set coils on HCCT. ran in a T. Checked on the ECCT. Firing times varied. Re adjusted to 90% minimum good on the ECCT. ran in a T again. I picked up 8 - 10 mph increase.(thats my best gauge on improvement) My only concern is the amp draw has varied as read with a recheck on the HCCT. I dont know what that means, or if I should be concerned about it. Coils seem to be set @ an optimal setting.

P.S. Watched the MK webinar. Fantastic. Highly recommend taking the time, even to the anti ECCT crowd.
Thanks MK for doing it & referencing it here in this post. Constant search to improve my model T knowledge.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:36 am

I would not be concerned about amp draw variations as long as none were excessive. At some point, excessive amp draw would cause timer issues and could cause missing at low speeds on MAG. Exactly what that point would be, I don't know, but I'd think a coil showing up to 10% over "average" amp draw would be OK to use. It would be useful to know the causes of amp draw variations among coils that had matched firing time. I suspect that variations in point resistance, capacitor values and condition, and the condition of windings, expecially the secondary, would all be factors. I suspect there are a number of old coils in service with some number of shorted turns in the secondary. An HCCT machine would need to be in good condition with all spark gaps and spark electrode physical profiles being the same and all contacts clean and in good order. The voltage required to throw a spark across a gap is affected by more than just the point gap. The physical shape of the electrodes has a significant impact.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:46 am

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:36 am
I would not be concerned about amp draw variations as long as none were excessive. At some point, excessive amp draw would cause timer issues and could cause missing at low speeds on MAG. Exactly what that point would be, I don't know, but I'd think a coil showing up to 10% over "average" amp draw would be OK to use. It would be useful to know the causes of amp draw variations among coils that had matched firing time. I suspect that variations in point resistance, capacitor values and condition, and the condition of windings, expecially the secondary, would all be factors. I suspect there are a number of old coils in service with some number of shorted turns in the secondary. An HCCT machine would need to be in good condition with all spark gaps and spark electrode physical profiles being the same and all contacts clean and in good order. The voltage required to throw a spark across a gap is affected by more than just the point gap. The physical shape of the electrodes has a significant impact.
Let me narrow the variables for you.
The range is 1.3 to 1.6A on the HCCT. Ammeter & volt meter are modern, new adaptions. Pointer ring is centered to pointer rotation. Coils are new rebuilt. New caps & points. ECCT 93-100% resulting coils. A HCCT retest shows all firing as low as 2V in a slow crank.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:55 am

That may be as good as it gets. I'd run them. As long as current draw doesn't get high enough to eat the timer, I don't think the engine knows the difference. If your coils fire down around 2 volts, They ought to work well on MAG or BATT as far as starting. It's my opinion that time to fire is more critical to good engine operation than current draw, as long as current draw is not destructively high.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:29 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:55 am
That may be as good as it gets. I'd run them. As long as current draw doesn't get high enough to eat the timer, I don't think the engine knows the difference. If your coils fire down around 2 volts, They ought to work well on MAG or BATT as far as starting. It's my opinion that time to fire is more critical to good engine operation than current draw, as long as current draw is not destructively high.
10 4. Will keep an eye on the timer. So far no issues. thanks.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Been Here Before » Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:43 pm

Naive question. Once one goes through and adjust the coils individually, how can one be certain that in operation, the coils are properly adjusted for the vehicles electrical system? What assurance does one have and how does one monitor the performance of the coil once in the coil box? Especially where current draw is critical.

May be a revised coil box (Circa 1907) that includes a monitoring meter and a in car coil adjustment device.A way to adjust the coils in the car for even better performance?

According to the patent's opening statement, the device will economize the battery current, and even the magneto's current, allowing the coil to be more efficient.
Scan1907coilmetreadjust.jpg


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by jeff10049 » Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:03 pm

By setting them on the car with a timing light thats what I started this whole conversation about. That's an interesting coil box.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:12 pm

My humble observations.
Discounting all the other factors in the chain that must be & stay perfect. You dont. If you are starting with new caps & points you will go a long time, if you dont bump the points. (fragile stuff) The coils performance will degrade over time, slowly, that you wont notice untill you retest.(frog in warming water) But all the other components are degrading also. (timer more than others) A monitoring meter would be a good thing. What would you monitor? amp draw changes? Now we note how strong we are running, like hill climbing ease, or speed. Still is it coils or something else? By guess & by golly.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Dan Hatch » Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:33 pm

Then there is always “Old School”.
D6CE6892-C63F-4E26-AF98-F8B24E44A049.jpeg
E9D405EE-72D5-47AC-A614-63080001E543.jpeg


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:43 pm

jeff10049 wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:03 pm
By setting them on the car with a timing light thats what I started this whole conversation about. That's an interesting coil box.
Yes, but you have to think there is an issue & check.
I have been thinking of your premise quite a bit. When you get it successful, give us a written procedure.
Your idea is a backwards coil setting from using the ECCT. It would be nice, if not required to have a good coil to start as a standard. Couldnt you potentially set 4 coils all consistently OFF? I suppose if the amp draw is low & timing light shows a VERY steady firing spot, how off/bad could they be? When satisfied, you could remove the plugs & hand crank listening for coil firing, like on a HCCT. You are setting/adjusting the coils to match TDC consistently. You need to know the point adjusting procedure Watch the MK webinar. There will be a lot of trial & error as in normal coil tuning.

The beauty of the ECCT is it tells you what to adjust. Whall running you can apply movements to get the correct adjustments fast. I am fortunate to have "club" access to one. A good idea for all chapters. If not for that access, I wouldnt have known how important it is in coil tuning & would have given up to a dizzy. If my access goes away I would spring for one.

A few more thoughts. All the other components must be perfect to concentrate on coils. Are you aware of ALL the issues with the timer? I think I posted them. They are critical. Set & tune in 1 spot when done with all 4, check timing on other 3 cyls. Variation/errors will point to something else in the chain. The hardest thing here is to confine the problem to just the coils. If your T was a 26-7. easier using #1 coil position to tune each coil in. If not setting up a single coil receptacle near or remote would make it much easier to using the under dash box.

Any coil adjusting requires much patience, knowledge & perseverance. If you are not familiar, you are in for an awakening. You are further handy capped by a lack "normal or usual" test equipment. I love the challenge you are undertaking.

All right, get on it & let us know how it works out. Good luck.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by Poppie » Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:49 am

Re Post Scott_Conger Dec 8th 2021 1.47pm.
I reread Jeffery's (I assume that is the name his mother gave him, a little different from OP)
and seeing that my first and second TWO PEOPLE didn't reply to your request I thought that I would.
Jeffery,
At your first question mark.......YES, Seeing that you already have a timing light.
" " second question mark..NO..
Be Safe...Neil.


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:12 am

You are missing the part about the size of the internal capacitor and the fact that it is normally bad in an original coil or the fact the coil will still buzz with a big arc at the points and not last very long.

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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by NHUSA » Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:42 am

I know that this is slightly off topic but I had Ron Patterson do the coils on our 19 T many years ago.
He replaced the capacitors and tuned them.
It was one of the best things I did for the T and my sanity.
NH - Where I used to live - not the carburetor ! :lol:


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Re: setting up coils on car?

Post by speedytinc » Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:23 pm

J1MGOLDEN wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:12 am
You are missing the part about the size of the internal capacitor and the fact that it is normally bad in an original coil or the fact the coil will still buzz with a big arc at the points and not last very long.
Well, yes, if you are serious about a good running T on coils, New & proper caps would be a starting point. Leaky cap coils will need more & frequent point attention @ the least.
For what Ron charges to rebuild & tune a coil, its crazy to try to make the old original coils work on a T you actually put miles on. Its one of the few dirty T jobs I dont have to do. The rebuild(caps) is a once thing, followed with very infrequent point servicing & re-tuning.
This has been my modus operandi with coils.

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