Beaudette alloy body no
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:53 am
By dint of gentle scraping at the paint, I have exposed a number on the seat of my 09. It appears to be 657X with possibly a ghostly B off to the left.
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Re: Beaudette alloy body no
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:01 pm
You can likely get a good impression of the number simply with tracing paper and a charcoal pencil or similar
Re: Beaudette alloy body no
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:15 pm
Jen, you got me curious ! What do you mean by "alloy body" ? Aluminum panels perhaps ?
Re: Beaudette alloy body no
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:41 pm
Yes it's an aluminium Beaudette touring body, shipping invoice date 8/17/09
Re: Beaudette alloy body no
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:38 pm
Jem,
Thank you for posting the body number. Yes, that is a “B” off to the left of the number. And according to Bruce McCalley’s research on page 476 of “Model T Ford” near the top right column he comments:
“Contrary to popular belief, the aluminum Touring bodies (supplied only by Pontiac Body Co.) were quite common until September 1909. All other bodies were wood and were supplied by Pontiac or Wilson for the most part.”
And at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm Bruce states: “ Note: Early Ford documents refer to a body manufacturer as “Pontiac.” Research has shown that there was no body manufacturer by that name but that in Pontiac, Michigan, it was actually the O. J. Beaudett Body Company that made these bodies for Ford. Just why Ford documents made this error is unknown. Perhaps it was just easier to write “Pontiac” than “Beaudett.”
Because your car is an Aluminum body and because your shipping document has a check mark by “Body Aluminum” and has Body Made By Pontiac, the “B” in front of your body number has to be for Beaudett (also spelled Beaudette).
If you have a copy of Bruce’s book or CD, you see as early as Mar 3, 1909 a Pontiac (Beaudett) Aluminum bodied touring is noted as being assembled (1,245) and on that same day several other Pontiac (Beaudett) tourings with the wood body were assembled. (ref page 478)
Note your shipping document that has the 8-17-09 date – that is listed as the “Car Assembling” date. On page 476 of Bruce’s book on the right column he states:
“Cars were assembled, obviously, after engines were assembled. The dates shown [in Bruce’s listing] are the dates of the body-to-chassis assembly, a short time after the engine date. In addition, chassis were assembled sometimes days before the bodies were installed. Add this to the fact that here were several assembly areas, and a general mix-up of dates versus serial number occurs. Where an “engine only” is indicated [again in Bruce’s listing], the date shown is the shipping date, not the manufacturing date.”
For those new to the forum, and are thinking they will order a shipping document for their Oct 6, 1911 or later Model T -- you will probably not be able to do that. Those shipping documents are only available for cars from #1 and then #1,119 (Mar 3, 1909) to approximately number 70,750 (Oct 5, 1911). There are other ledgers that contain about 22% of the serial numbers from 1903 to Dec 1914 or possible a little into 1915. But if you have a late 1915 or later Model T, there are no known records at the Benson Ford Archives that would list when it was produced. Why? It is believed those records were destroyed in a fire at the archives that happened last century.
Below is a Beaudett body number that is stamped on the bottom of a 1908 Model S Roadster mother-in-law seat. Thank you to Andrew Brand for providing that photo.
Now that you have removed some of the paint, I would believe that you can now see your car's body number by raising the front seat cushion and looking down at the front of wooden seat frame that is in front of the gas tank. But rather than me assuming that, would you please confirm that is where it is located or let us know where it actually is located?
You have a special car and thank you so much for sharing your discovery.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Thank you for posting the body number. Yes, that is a “B” off to the left of the number. And according to Bruce McCalley’s research on page 476 of “Model T Ford” near the top right column he comments:
“Contrary to popular belief, the aluminum Touring bodies (supplied only by Pontiac Body Co.) were quite common until September 1909. All other bodies were wood and were supplied by Pontiac or Wilson for the most part.”
And at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm Bruce states: “ Note: Early Ford documents refer to a body manufacturer as “Pontiac.” Research has shown that there was no body manufacturer by that name but that in Pontiac, Michigan, it was actually the O. J. Beaudett Body Company that made these bodies for Ford. Just why Ford documents made this error is unknown. Perhaps it was just easier to write “Pontiac” than “Beaudett.”
Because your car is an Aluminum body and because your shipping document has a check mark by “Body Aluminum” and has Body Made By Pontiac, the “B” in front of your body number has to be for Beaudett (also spelled Beaudette).
If you have a copy of Bruce’s book or CD, you see as early as Mar 3, 1909 a Pontiac (Beaudett) Aluminum bodied touring is noted as being assembled (1,245) and on that same day several other Pontiac (Beaudett) tourings with the wood body were assembled. (ref page 478)
Note your shipping document that has the 8-17-09 date – that is listed as the “Car Assembling” date. On page 476 of Bruce’s book on the right column he states:
“Cars were assembled, obviously, after engines were assembled. The dates shown [in Bruce’s listing] are the dates of the body-to-chassis assembly, a short time after the engine date. In addition, chassis were assembled sometimes days before the bodies were installed. Add this to the fact that here were several assembly areas, and a general mix-up of dates versus serial number occurs. Where an “engine only” is indicated [again in Bruce’s listing], the date shown is the shipping date, not the manufacturing date.”
For those new to the forum, and are thinking they will order a shipping document for their Oct 6, 1911 or later Model T -- you will probably not be able to do that. Those shipping documents are only available for cars from #1 and then #1,119 (Mar 3, 1909) to approximately number 70,750 (Oct 5, 1911). There are other ledgers that contain about 22% of the serial numbers from 1903 to Dec 1914 or possible a little into 1915. But if you have a late 1915 or later Model T, there are no known records at the Benson Ford Archives that would list when it was produced. Why? It is believed those records were destroyed in a fire at the archives that happened last century.
Below is a Beaudett body number that is stamped on the bottom of a 1908 Model S Roadster mother-in-law seat. Thank you to Andrew Brand for providing that photo.
- Andrew Brand's 1908 Model S Roadster rear seat body number
You have a special car and thank you so much for sharing your discovery.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Re: Beaudette alloy body no
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:29 am
Yes Hap, it is the front of the seat frame as you describe. You might like to know the engine assembly date is also 8 17 09 , stamped on the transmission shaft.
Re: Beaudette alloy body no
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:46 am
Jem,
Thank you for confirming the body number is located in the normal place -- stamped into the front seat wooden seat frame in front of the gas tank.
Every car has a story to tell. For a very very few of them it is easy the owner is fortunate to know the history or at least some of the history from the original owner until today. The Rip Van Winkle Ford with a Jun 1917 and less than 100 miles on it the last time I heard a report.
Your car has several clues that many of the rest of the cars are lacking. The copy of the original shipping document, the body number, and even the date stamped on the shaft of the transmission. A very minor "type-o" correction so I don't get confused when I look at the posting in the future. (I know -- get a life.... but I keep looking for clues on what and how Ford did things on the 1906-1927 Fords. Some people work crossword puzzles -- I enjoy Ford History.) From the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80 ... 1236763969 you shared the photo below of the transmission shaft date of 8 16 09.
Have you ever considered possibly doing an article for our club magazine about your car? This could be embarrassing -- if you reply with the vol and number of the magazine that already has the story. But if so -- I would like to read the article. And if not -- I would still like to read the future article.
Again thank you for sharing about your T and the story it has to tell.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Thank you for confirming the body number is located in the normal place -- stamped into the front seat wooden seat frame in front of the gas tank.
Every car has a story to tell. For a very very few of them it is easy the owner is fortunate to know the history or at least some of the history from the original owner until today. The Rip Van Winkle Ford with a Jun 1917 and less than 100 miles on it the last time I heard a report.
Your car has several clues that many of the rest of the cars are lacking. The copy of the original shipping document, the body number, and even the date stamped on the shaft of the transmission. A very minor "type-o" correction so I don't get confused when I look at the posting in the future. (I know -- get a life.... but I keep looking for clues on what and how Ford did things on the 1906-1927 Fords. Some people work crossword puzzles -- I enjoy Ford History.) From the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80 ... 1236763969 you shared the photo below of the transmission shaft date of 8 16 09.
- Jem Bowkett - transmission shaft dated Aug 16, 1909.jpg (100.89 KiB) Viewed 3949 times
Again thank you for sharing about your T and the story it has to tell.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Re: Beaudette alloy body no
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:14 am
Caught me! It's a while since I saw that shaft so I forgot it was the day previous. As for doing an article, that would have to wait for all the other stuff on the to-do list, and it certainly isn't going to happen soon with summer coming at us. Winter is for writing tasks.