Early Brush Painting?

[tgiro]

Some early manufacturers applied paint to their bodies using brushes. I know that Japanning sped up the Model T process later on. But I was wondering if anyone is aware of earlier Model T bodies having factory-applied brush painted bodies.
Regards,
Joe

[Humblej]

Yes good article about it in the old encyclopedia under paint.

[John Codman]

I knew a gentleman in Newton, MA who brush painted a Model A rear fender; you couldn't tell that the perfect finish was brushed.

[Rich Eagle]

Slow drying enamels flow out nicely. Brushing can put an even coat around all surfaces. I get good results on wheels, frames and most chassis parts. I haven't tried a whole body for a long time.
Rich Bingham has quite a knowledge of the early painting techniques and paints. I hope he can offer his insights here.
Rich E.

[Caswell]

Some early manufacturers applied paint to their bodies using brushes. I know that Japanning sped up the Model T process later on. But I was wondering if anyone is aware of earlier Model T bodies having factory-applied brush painted bodies.
Regards,
Joe

If you are looking at painting your own car, do what makes you comfortable. I just reread the encyclopedia reference to paint and my take is who knows as most early cars were not painted by Ford. If you do it right (prep and patience and add some more patience) you can get a finish as smooth as glass even over wood body panels.

[Rich in Colorado]

I have this ad hung on the wall of my shop. I like how pleased the couple is with their newly painted, blue, centerdoor! So, it can be done well. And for $4.20........



Rich

[tgiro]

To All, Thank you for all the information and advice.

What a fantastic advertisement, Rich.

Jeff, Which encyclopedia are you referring to?

To clarify my question, I'm wondering which years and what style Model T bodies would have had brush-painted bodies when delivered from the Ford factory? In other words, to be a completely authentic restoration, on which years and body styles should the body be brush-painted, if any?
Regards,
Joe

[John kuehn]

The encyclopedia reference may be the one that’s on the MTFCA website. Go to the home page and go to Resources. Then go down to the encyclopedia old version. There is a wealth of information about all aspects of the Model T Ford in alphabetical order. Hope this helps.

[Caswell]

https://www.mtfca.com/model_t_encyclopedia/p-r/

[tgiro]

I just read the article in the MTFCA encyclopedia which brings me to my followup question. Who was supplying bodies to Ford during the early years of Model T production? The answer(s) to that may provide more info regarding factory paint application during that period. I will have to do more research. It certainly seems owners and body shops were repainting cars using brushes for many years. I wonder if early (pre 1914) body suppliers had the facilities to dip or flow paint onto bodies during that era as Ford did later. And since paint composition has changed so drastically since then, achieving an original finish both in color and texture seems impossible. We can only approximate what that paint looked like. Again, thank you to all who chimed in on this.
Regards,
Joe

[Caswell]

Following from search (I cut and paste it)


Initially most of the Model T’s bodies were supplied by Ford's existing auto body suppliers C.R. Wilson (1903) and Everitt Brothers (1908). O.J. Beaudette (1910), Kelsey-Herbert Co. (1910), American Body Co. (1911), Hayes Mfg. Co.(1911) Milburn Wagon Co. (1911) and Fisher Body Co.(1912), and the Kahler Mfg. Co. (1915). Regardless of their origin, all of the Model T’s bodies were interchangeable, however the individual parts in a body would not necessarily fit a similar-looking body if it was made by a different manufacturer. Ford even built their own body plant in the mid-teens to help keep up with demand.

Typically Ford‘s body suppliers did not supply the Model T’s fenders, with the exception of the Hayes Mfg. Co., who had supplied them with fenders from day one. As Ford’s needs increased, additional Hayes-owned plants supplied additional fenders as required. The J.W. Murray Mfg. Co. of Detroit and Ecorse, Michigan also supplied Ford with Model T fenders and other stamped-metal products such as hoods and frames.

While many of Ford’s body suppliers furnished them completed bodies, that is, bodies ready to be mated with finished chassis on the assembly line, a large percentage of them furnished Ford with bodies in-the-white, composite bodies delivered without trim, paint, varnish and hardware. Ford’s bodies in-the-white were typically finished by American Auto Trimming, Windsor, Ontario based firm with a large satellite plant in Detroit.

Convertible tops were initially supplied by two firms, O.J. Beaudette and the American Top Co. of Jackson, Michigan. O.J. Beaudette is though to have supplied Ford with well over 2,000,000 bodies from 1910-1922 when the firm became a subsidiary of the Fisher Body Co.

In late 1911 Ford started supplying its dealers with its first commercial vehicle, the Model T Delivery Wagon. Produced into late 1912 bodies for the Delivery Wagon were built by O.J. Beaudette and the Milburn Wagon Co. These were initially painted red, with the standard blue fenders. In January Ford announced that fenders would be black and the bodies unpainted. A poor seller, production was discontinued early in the year. The last were sold in December 1912.

What follows is a chart of OEM Ford Model T & TT Body Suppliers with approximate dates each firm worked with Ford.

Manufacturer

Specialty/Body Type

Years

American Auto Trimming

Paint & Trim

1909-27

American Body

Open Bodies

1911-22

American Motor Body

Closed Bodies, Center Door Sedan

1920-23

OJ Beaudette

Open Bodies, Delivery Wagon

1910-22

Briggs

Open & Closed Bodies, Fenders, Sheet Metal

1909-27

Budd

Fenders, Sheet Metal

1915-27

Detroit

Open Bodies

1908-15

BF Everitt

Open Bodies

1908-09

Everitt Bros

Open Bodies

1912-27

Fisher Body

Open & Closed Bodies, Center Door Sedan

1908-23

Wm. Gray

Open Bodies

1908-12

Hayes Mfg

Fenders, Sheet Metal

1908-24

Kahler Mfg

Open Bodies

1915-21

Kelsey-Herbert

Open & Closed Bodies

1910-14

Midland Steel

Frames, Sheet Metal

1910-27

Milburn

Delivery Wagon

1911-12

Monroe Body

Open Bodies

1908-11

Murray

Open & Closed Bodies

1913-27

Towson

Open & Closed Bodies

1908-24

Trippensee

Open Bodies

1908-22

Widman

Millwork & Trim

1908-24

CR Wilson

Open & Closed Bodies

1908-24

Wilson-Hayes

Fenders, Sheet Metal

1908-16

Wadsworth

Closed Bodies, Center Door Sedan

1917-20

[Mark Gregush]

On page 149 in "Model T Ford, the car that changed the world" there is a hint of how it was done. Reading that indicates that in 1913 the bodies were being sprayed with blue varnish. What spraying in this case would actually mean, I don't know. Reading how things were done in that era seems to point at bodies being color varnished, not using paint. Reading that information, I get the idea that Ford was painting the bodies in house at that time. For body builders, from the online encyclopedia; http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm
How an outside repair facility may have done it, could be lost to time.

[Rich Bingham]

"Car guys" tend to forget that carriages and wagons were painted (with brushes) for many long decades before the first "infernal gas buggy" sputtered to life. Resulting finishes were flawless, to meet the demands of customers who were equally proud of their horse-drawn conveyances as any latter-day motorist, and as enamored of "shiny things".

Since most early autos had wooden coachwork bodies, processes and materials moved quite seamlessly into the motor age. The pressures of mass production began to necessitate a change to different methods of application as well as newly developed types of paint, such as nitrocellulose lacquers and alkyd resin enamels. Prior to these advances, finishes were compounded with drying oils (primarily linseed) and natural resins (e. g., copal, amber, mastic, damar, etc.) Those familiar with traditional materials for fine art painting may recognize the similarities. While capable of producing remarkably beautiful finishes in the hands of a skiled craftsman, in exterior applications they are quite susceptible to ultraviolet decay. "Back in the day", regular maintenance was considered to be an annual re-coating to preserve a "like new" appearance.

Today, re-creating an authentic period correct finish for an early wood-bodied automobile may be a very rewarding research project, but a difficult one, as many of the traditional materials are either in short supply, have been abandoned or repaced by painters in oil mediums, or are unobtainable. Others, such as lead pigments are banned or restricted for their toxicity.

[Caswell]

On page 149 in "Model T Ford, the car that changed the world" there is a hint of how it was done. Reading that indicates that in 1913 the bodies were being sprayed with blue varnish. What spraying in this case would actually mean, I don't know. Reading how things were done in that era seems to point at bodies being color varnished, not using paint. Reading that information, I get the idea that Ford was painting the bodies in house at that time. For body builders, from the online encyclopedia; http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm
How an outside repair facility may have done it, could be lost to time.

Below is taken from MTFCA encyclopedia under paint, one reason I posted "who Knows" above, I believe F-115 is a color varnish and the term spraying indicated it was very thin (like water) and as such could be blown on syphon style, pre-paint gun, who knows.

EDIT OUT, Spray gun ref.

Painting Model T bodies was one of the most complex and time-consuming processes in the Ford factory. From a chronological standpoint, it was also one of the last painting operations to be undertaken by the Ford Motor Company. The Cost Book for December 1913 contains the interesting note “We are using only about 5% of Touring Car Bodies purchased in the white which we trim and paint ourselves. We are trimming and painting none of the Torpedo Car Bodies.” This indicates that the Ford Motor Company had just begun the painting and upholstering of bodies in its own factory, and that 95% or more of the bodies used on the Model T were still being delivered from the body supplier to the Ford Motor Company completely painted and upholstered. Ford continued to paint and trim only 5% of its touring car bodies through April 1914. Painting and trimming operations were expanded in to 10% of Ford’s total touring car body requirements in May 1914. Production of painted and trimmed bodies continued to rise so that by October 1914, Ford was trimming and painting 40% of its touring car body requirements. The point at which Ford was painting and trimming all of its touring car bodies is not known since the Cost Books no longer state this statistic after October 1914. Painting and trimming of torpedo (roadster) bodies in the Ford factories did not begin until September 1915. Through September 1914 the Cost books indicate that the final color coat on touring car bodies was F-115 Spraying Blue. The use of black color coats on touring car bodies does not appear until the February 1915 Cost Book.

[26TRoadster]

Didnt know that. I brushed a set of wood wheels that came out really good 5 or 6 years ago

[TrentB]

The article on Model T paints first appeared in the November/December 1997 issue of the Vintage Ford (see citation below). If you can locate a copy of that issue it is well worth looking at because the original article included a number of photos of the painting process for Model T Fords. After it was published Bruce McCalley asked me for permission to include the article in the Encyclopedia, which I readily granted. The photos included in the original article were purchased with a one-time right to publish from the Benson Ford Research Center, the photos could not be included in the Encyclopedia.

The one thing to understand about painting the Model T during the black era is there were essentially two different painting processes used. The first was for black baking enamel which was dried in high temperature ovens after being applied, usually by dipping. Ford found ways to dip virtually all the metal parts, including fenders, hoods, frames, and even the rear axle.

The other painting process was used on bodies and the materials used were air dry paints. Bodies were painted mainly by hand (Ford referred to it as flowing paint on the bodies using “paint guns” that resembled garden hose nozzles). Several gallons of paint were flowed onto each body, but most of it ran off and was caught in pans beneath the body and was recycled. The air dry paints typically required 24 hours to dry between coats, and four coats of paint were used on each body. After a coat was applied, the bodies were stacked standing nose down until the previous coat was dry enough for the next coat to be put on. One picture I have seen of the interior of the big 6 story buildings at Highland Park (buildings W, X, Y and Z) shows the floors filled with touring car bodies stacked on their noses for drying. Air dry paints were used on bodies because of the structural wood frames used in the bodies. Oven baking enamels were dried at 400 degrees. If a touring car body had been subject to the heat of a paint baking oven the structural wood would have emerged as charcoal.

“The Customer Can Have Any Color He Wants So Long As Its Black: A Study of the Materials and Methods Use to Paint the Model T,” The Vintage Ford, vol. 32, no. 6 (November-December 1997) pp. 26-41.

By today’s standards, the air dried paints looked very shiny when new, but would oxidize quickly. After a year or so of service, the body would be in need of a fresh coat of paint. In contrast, oven baked enamels would retain their high luster for several years.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess

[DanTreace]

To add to Trent's reply, there is multiple pages in The Ford Methods and the Ford Shops, 1914-1915 with illustrations to show the early process of the 'color varnish'.

One of the first steps was a spray coat, yes spray from a gun noted as 80 psi, not withstanding the typical Google info that DeVilbiss invented the spray gun in the 20's, pneumatic paint guns were much earlier. The prime coat was allowed to dry, then sanded, then the body was back on the track.

The bodies were placed on conveyor and ran at speed of 25 feet per minute. When on the track a 2nd blue-black priming coat was placed using gravity flow guns, drip pans returned the varnish to the the gravity fed system, so that 2 gallons of liquid paint is flowed on, about 200 feet of track needed per body, it was found that 1 gallon was needed to cover 11 bodies with the gravity flow paint method. After 200 feet the body was dry enough to be pulled off and stacked for 24 hours. Then the body goes back on a cross track and gets on the 'color varnish' line, for the distance of 200 feet, pulled and stacked and 'mossed' by hand, the given a 2nd color varnish coat as before and stacked and dried, ready for upholstery.

Lastly the bodies were hand pumiced with water ( the very blurry left side of the photo shows the workers on both sides of bodies on the line) to brighten the gloss of the color varnish.

IMG_2736 (600x450).jpg (139.21 KiB) Viewed 3112 times

[Caswell]

Hi Dan,

The statement below is from the MTFCA encyclopedia, I hate to be part of the problem with regard to posting hearsay Google garbage, like Ford made car floors from screw boxes. The original poster referenced early cars, were is the correct info for paint process for pre 14 cars. Is this a case of semantics , primer was spayed but paint (color varnish) was flowed on, all reference looks to be black era cars.
I will edit my prior replies as to not perpetuate incorrect information , statement below if not correct should be edited on MTFCA encyclopedia.


Application of the Paints Spray guns for the application paint were not developed until the early 1920s. Credit for their development belongs largely to the De Vilbiss Company. Prior to that time Model T parts were painted using brushing, dipping or flowing methods.

[Mark Gregush]

Depends on if the information came from Ford factory letters or internal memos. There are other ways to move paint besides the De Vilbiss Company type paint gun, siphon feed would be one, like many of the air brushes.
A siphon feed spray gun works with compressed air. Although there are many sprayers on the market today, many professionals still use a version of the original siphon feed gun developed by Joe Binks for the 1896 Chicago World Fair.

[Caswell]

Depends on if the information came from Ford factory letters or internal memos. There are other ways to move paint besides the De Vilbiss Company type paint gun, siphon feed would be one, like many of the air brushes.
A siphon feed spray gun works with compressed air. Although there are many sprayers on the market today, many professionals still use a version of the original siphon feed gun developed by Joe Binks for the 1896 Chicago World Fair.

Hi Mark,
I mentioned syphon type 5 posts above, Dan stated "One of the first steps was a spray coat, yes spray from a gun noted as 80 psi"
I was saying that if the information I had posted early on was not correct I would remove it. Again the original poster asked about method of painting on early cars and without stating a year was assumed to be pre 14. So, how did Ford cars get painted prior to 1914.

[tgiro]

You are correct, Dean. My original question was vague enough to have prompted discussion of later painting processes in the Model T production era. But, I'm really interested in how the early (pre-14?) outsourced bodies were painted, bodies not necessarily manufactured in-house by Ford. There may have been a variety of application techniques: dipping, flowing, brushing, etc. Trent's research did not seem to uncover any specification from Ford to his body suppliers mandating a specific paint application method in those early years. I'm guessing there was none, but it's only a guess.

So, if I may, let me ask this. Have any owners or custodians of early original Model T's seen evidence of brushed-on original paint on their cars? If so, on what years and body styles?

Regards,
Joe

[NY John T]

I don't know if this helps or not. Here's my 27 Tudor the day I purchased it a year ago from a warehouse where it sat for decades. Birds christened it as well as mice vacationed in it. I think is shows the brush strokes from original painting. I'm not certain of this though.
John

[DanTreace]

This link is about early carriage or auto body wood painting. Written in 1951 by a former worker in painting bodies. I have too an early book on wood body painting that follows closely this process. Time consuming for sure, Henry had to find a better process as the T was beginning to sell in quantity.


https://www.farmanddairy.com/columns/bu ... art/284525

[tgiro]

Thanks for the photo, John, and for the article, Dan . . . both appreciated.

John, I can't tell from the photo if those are brush strokes or marks left from rubbing out paint applied using another method. Research would indicate a car built this late was painted using a flow technique. Were the finishes rubbed out after flow painting? I thought the whole point of flowing the paint was to delete the hand-rubbing requirement. My '17 Touring still has original Japan paint on the back of the front seat. It was obviously thinner at the top and thicker at the bottom when it dried and has worn accordingly.

Dan, That's a very interesting article describing a long, multi-step process. I can see why painting created a bottleneck in early car production, and why Ford created/adopted methods that made that early process obsolete. Again, thanks for posting it.

Regards,
Joe

[Wascator]

Flow coating was common before spray, as covered in previous posts. There are examples to be seen in vintage movies online at YouTube of this being done.
For great information about brush painting, search on the internet “coach painting” and look in British sites. This is still practiced in the UK to restore old carriages, busses, trucks, and canal boats, because this is typical of their original construction. A very glossy and high quality finish is possible, using the correct paints and brush techniques and what they call flatting, which we call wet sanding and buffing. I was intrigued when I found some of these sites accidentally several years ago. It made me understand tge high quality results that could be obtained without expensive equipment.

[Will_Vanderburg]

I painted my car with a foam roller

[Charlie B in N.J.]

It was way way back probably in the "30's that the Model Garage series with Gus Wilson ran a detailed story about Gus brush painting his car. Plenty of do's and dont's in there.

[A Whiteman]

Just to divert a little, hand brush painting was done in assembly line production for English cars well into the 30's. I can still remember running my hands over the brush strokes and being fascinated that the paint was smooth on my great uncles 1936 'Standard' even with the obvious brush marks (probably due to a lot of hand flatting done). That was a few years ago now and the car has sunk into the ground by now (rusted away where it sat).

As a further divert, I don't think the English had the volume pressure on their assembly lines that Henry had, and combined with unionisation pressure, the old ways lasted a longer time there. Probably one reason they lost out in the car manufacture race.