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Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:38 pm
by Oldav8tor
With the help of a friend I was able to pull the front wheels off my 1917 Touring today. I was pleased to discover that somewhere in the past the ball bearings had been replaced with roller bearings although I was surprised by the different appearance of the two outers (see first photo). The left wheel was reluctant to come off after the outer was removed and when it did the inner bearing came apart and scattered rollers all over the place. There were some tiny burrs on the spindle that were jamming the bearing. I carefully filed the burrs on the spindle and now the other inner slides on and off easily (photo 2). I don't believe the spindle needs to replaced but would appreciate hearing from others.

The races look OK so I think I can get by with a new inner bearing unless there is a reason to replace one of the dissimilar outers.

Other than that, the right kingpin bushings are worn so it looks like I should probably replace both the right and left just to be sure. If I have to take the axle off to take it to where it can be repaired (I don't have a Steven's tool) I was thinking of just unbolting the springs from the frame and taking the whole thing. Anyone have a better idea? My assumption is that if I removed the springs from the shackles on the axle it might be hard to get them back in. Then again, if I decide to replace the shackle bushings they'd have to come off anyway :-)
bearings.jpg
spindle.jpg

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:37 pm
by DickC
It looks to me that someone used the old technique to increase the spindle size so the bearing would be snug. The is a popular technique applied to the crankshaft pulley when it is loose. Some take a punch and dent the shaft which raises the surface. I would not think this is a good idea for a front spindle bearing. But what do I know?

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:48 pm
by Erik Johnson
"Raspberrying" involves pricking the surface with a hammer and punch to create rough surface, like a raspberry, in order to eliminate slop. It's an old trick that has been used to solve a wide variety of problems.

Unless someone filed flats on the spindle, it is not from 1917. The two flats easy removal of the ball bearing race or the roller bearing from the spindle by tapping them in the back with a drift and hammer.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:56 pm
by RajoRacer
We call it "strawberrying" over here ! Somewhere I have a photo of the front of a crankshaft that came into the shop because of a "rod knock" - nope just a loose front fan drive pulley BUT the front of the crank musta had a 100 prick punches !

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:49 pm
by John.Zibell
I would not recommend using the old outer races. It is best to replace with new bearing and race. The outer race may look good, but the wear on it may not match the angle of the new bearing.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:56 pm
by Steve Jelf
Removing the shackles from the springs and perches is not difficult.

If you need to replace anything, these are the numbers:
Bearings, Front Wheel.jpg
Bearings, Front Wheel.jpg (37.13 KiB) Viewed 3017 times

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:56 pm
by Oldav8tor
OK - One of the guesses we made about the marks on the spindle was to tighten up the bearing so you're probably right. Question - how tight is the inner bearing supposed to ride on the spindle? If it turns easily (the whole bearing) should it be tightened and is there a way to do that short of replacing the spindle?

Also - I repeat the question.... do you think I need to replace the funny looking outer bearing?

John - if I keep the outer bearings I suspect it would be fine to keep the outer races if they look good.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:17 pm
by Ruxstel24
Tim, the "funny race" is actually just what's called the cage that's different. It just holds it all together and really doesn't do anything else.
Clean them all good and blow dry (don't spin with air)...then put them against the mating race and turn and feel. If smooth they should be fine. And you should see no pits in the rollers or races.

And no, the whole bearing should not spin on the spindle. I would redo the "raspberrys" and make it a snug/slip fit.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:38 pm
by tdumas
Replace both inner bearings and cups. They are a standard item available from your local auto or bearing supply and relatively inexpensive.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:07 pm
by Erik Johnson
Steve Tomaso -

I should have typed "strawberrying." My mind is a little screwed up today.....

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:43 pm
by Steve Jelf
The best prices on the bearings are usually at Rock auto.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:46 pm
by jagiven
Regarding the kingpins, I would replace just the one set of bushings and the kingpin. You can buy a reamer and alignment tool.

First time, I only replace the worn bushings, and I had to redo them few years later. Recently, I replaced both the bushings and the kingpin. The other set still holding strong, with little to no wear.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:24 am
by John.Zibell
Oldav8tor

Just use the bearing in the same race it ran on. As long as you keep the bearings matched you will be good.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:54 am
by RajoRacer
No worries Erik - I like both !

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:20 am
by Ruxstel24
I thought this was the "raspberries" :P

Image

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:30 am
by DHort
Steve Jelf is correct. Go to RockAuto and purchase new races and bearings. Races are cheap and why not have a set of new bearings. This is what you are riding on. How safe would you like to be?

RockAuto does not always have everything in stock. Then contact your local Model T parts dealer and give him some business. Support the men and women that support you.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:57 am
by Original Smith
Maybe you don't feel like doing this, but have you considered replacing the spindle? They are easy to find.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:20 pm
by Oldav8tor
Like the NPR Radio show - "All Things Considered" - I appreciate all your comments. My good friend Brian_D has been advising me and at this point the plan is that I will tag along with him next week when he takes the front axle from a 1915 project to a Model T Guru about an hour and a half from here. The gentlemen has all the tools and the expertise to use them so I'm going to take my axle as well and enlist his assistance in inspecting it and repairing as needed. I'm under a bit of a time crunch if I want to be ready for a tour in mid-May so I think this is a good way to go.

I got most of the axle apart today and decided that I need to replace the kingpins as well as the bushings and also the tie-rod bolts. The threads on the kingpins as well as the tie-rod bolts show some damage which is unfortunate inasmuch as I understand those with "manhole cover" oilers are a prized item. I've attached a photo to show you what I found.

One positive aspect of this whole experience is that I now feel confident to work on the front wheel components - I learn something new every day which is one of the reasons I bought a Model T.

I do have another question - some of the diagrams I've seen from Martin V. of the front wheels shows a "grease chamber" between the inner and outer bearings and grease packed under the cap. When installing the wheels do you pack grease in those areas? Do you fill the cap with grease and turn it on to push grease into the outer bearing and grease chamber like with the grease cups used in other areas?
Kingpin.jpg

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:25 pm
by Oldav8tor
The saga continues... I received my new 14120 bearing today. It fits snugly on the spindles so the looseness I reported must have been due to wear on the old bearings. I also noticed that the old 14120 had only 14 rollers compared to 17 on the new so I'm going to get another inner and keep the old one as a spare.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:10 pm
by Steve Jelf
Squeeze grease into the bearings and slather on more when you put them in, but no, you don't need to pack the hub cap.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:44 pm
by Oldav8tor
Here's another question - how often do you pull the front wheels and grease the bearings?

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:50 pm
by tdumas
Check your front axle kingpin threads. You may need to helicoil them,

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:50 pm
by KeithG
Hi Tim, You asked "How often do you pull the wheels and grease the bearings?" I do it at least once a year, depending on how many miles the car is driven. On the T I drive the most, I do it more often and check them frequently.

Keith

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:47 am
by John.Zibell
tdumas wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:50 pm
Check your front axle kingpin threads. You may need to helicoil them,
Better yet find someone with a Stevens front axle tool and set it up correctly.

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:01 am
by Oldav8tor
I’m taking the axle to a guy with the tools and experience to use them. I believe in doing things right the first time. A friend is getting his axle done at the same time so it’ll be a social event of sorts...We have the helicoils if needed along with new kingpins, tie rod bolts and bushings, etc. I’m looking forward to observing the process and adding to my store of knowledge...for me that is a big part of the fun of owning a Model T😁

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:05 am
by Scott_Conger
Tim

do yourself a really big favor since the axle is out of the car: check for straightness...you may be surprised at what you find

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1323767931

Re: Front wheel bearings and...

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:13 am
by Oldav8tor
Scott-good suggestion. I’m adding that to the list.