MTFCA Forum

This project was on the back burner for quite awhile. Was suppose to be used for a Model T project I was building to go to Bonneville Salt Flats for an attempt at 220 MPH in a Model T. The good ole boys and their stupid rules and interpretations, No Thanks! A stock Model T transmission with all that weight is a power stealing hog and also steals fuel mileage. Going dry as the Dodge Bros suggested to Henry Ford would gain better fuel mileage and power. Well.., He did it on the Model A! Going dry clutch with a Mustang SVO 5 speed, in front..., a Joe Gemsa head with a Super Stroker Balanced Skat cranked engine. This only took 10 hours today since it is a one off proto type.., more to come later. That pile of 6061 series aluminum and all the attachment hardware is only $900.00 now. Frickin' OUCH! Slow cutting 1" Billet!



All the Best,

Hank

Looks great. Nice to see I’m not the only screwball!! This casting takes any ford transmission from a 2.9 l or smaller engine

Screw balls are a special club Les. SSSShhhhh!

The clutch and transmission are one of the unique differences on a Model T than other cars. If you want dry, why don't you look for a Dodge or Chevy? Or if you want more speed look for an early Ford V8?
Norm

? Same reason that dude put a 427 FE in an AC Cobra.

The one I have pictured is staying with oiled multidisc clutches! Borg Warner T35 automatic from a 68 Cortina. Couple of nice features are the air cooled torque converter and a cable kick down.
I’ve done a couple of T engines using the T transmission with the flywheel NOT running in the oil. I oil the transmission from the inside with a drilled main shaft. Works great.

Why kill a good engine with an over heavy rotating device? Think how many crankshafts have been broken by out of balance conditions due to wear, metal fatigue, strain on bands , etc. Why do you accessorize a modern car or truck or keep buying a new one? Why do people put on Sure Stop Brakes? I would not for personal reasons and because I doubt there will be any replacement parts for them in 20 years or less. The rear disc rotors and calibers are not for a passenger car but for trailers (Non People Carrying Vehicles) and the master cylinder is for Off Road Use Only. Because you can and so can I if I like. But if a fatality occurs and a crash investigation is performed, I will guarantee you, someone modified their vehicles original design and did not read the fine print in their insurance policy. Improvements with logic is best, doing what someone is trying to sell you is buyer beware. Let's face it..., Metal fatigue will stop you in your tracks or kill you and at the current rate of our members whom have passed that used to produce nice replacement parts, we as car people have about 20 years left in having fun so to say.

Have fun, I am!

Humbled Hank

P.S. Les.., Looking Good! Dad's 1914 has the wet clutch only with a 1937 Chevy top loader.., works sweet!

A flathead model T has run 200 mph at Bonneville. Five main crank with a girdle and turbocharged I believe. That Gemsa head will make more power but you may need to supercharge it to get into the 200 club. I would be happy to help you in the endeavor.

Thanks Erik, but scraped the idea. Was going with the engine in the rear with a special aero designed body. Dr Gary Flandro, Aeronautical Engineer, offered wind tunnel test for the body. Already made the girdles, etc, but wanted to stay away from a super charger, turbo, or NOS. Final drive would have been a sliding variable disc.

Hank

I'd think a MILD nitrous system and a scat crank/rods would make a nice, stock looking fast T. 35 HP at 2100 (?) Or maybe a belt-driven supercharger? Forged pistons?

A little off subject here, but SCTA/BNI rules are intended for one thing- to keep everyone safe. Yea, some of the rules may seem draconian, but lots of folks have walked away from fires and crashes at over 200 MPH because of those rules and requirements. Enjoy your cars, whatever you do.

Henry
Like you, I had thoughts about Bonneyville and other events but I was warned that my ideas would not be acceptable. So I will just carry on at home.

I wish you luck in your quest for 220, but I will believe it when I see it. In order to go 220 the chassis and body will not be Model T. I simply don't believe that you can get enough power out of a T engine that is normally-aspirated and without nitrous. I would love it if you can prove me wrong.

Gemsa head The intake manifold for 2 V8 carburetors
The oil pan And the block

The block

My Model T engine has three main bearings; yours has five. What year did a Model T Ford engine have five main bearings?

Looks like the same year they went to aluminium blocks and four intake ports.
Harry

Well.., there you go.., Les made it!

Oddly enough they even made them in the day! Years back on top fuel dragsters a guy lost a bet with me. He had to buy me Corona beer and Crown Royal for a year. Said I could not get the car over 300 mph! It Did 305 mph! A natural aspirated engine with the right body can do miracles! You can even install a rotation catch in between 1&2.., and 3&4. Cool old stuff in engineering!!!!

Hank

Well another 10 hour day that was very productive!!!!!

The duct tape holding the wing reinforcements on is Gorilla Tape..., All Good!

Looks GREAT!

Keep um coming. Do you smell that? Like burning rubber smell?

A few years back I sold a cast aluminum pan and adapter that was used to mount a C4 transmission to the Model T Engine. A popular conversion at one time as I understand it. Engine was built by Orville Enyeart and owned by Andy Mounce. I believe LaRue Thomas is responsible for these casting.

Please don't take this as criticism, and I wish you the best of luck in your quest, but the chassis won't be Model T, the body won't be Model T, and the engine isn't Model T. How will this car be a Model T? With all due respect to someone who is far more skilled then I, but this project reminds me of my axe that was once owned by George Washington; it has had three new handles, a new head, and two new wedges, but it is George Washington's axe.

The “Model T” that ran over 200mph at Bonneville used a Model T block and front cover plate. The extra main bearings for the five main bearing crank was a lump of aluminum to support bearings 2 and 4. The bearing 1, 3 and 5 sat in the T block. Incidentally the crank was made in San Diego .
On the first year the streamliner had a two speed gear box. On the second year the car had a five speed gearbox and a very custom 1.9:1 crown wheel and pinion. I believe that was made in the US South. The aluminum cylinder head was custom, incidentally machined by the very talented driver.
After runs were over, the crew were given a picture of the car signed by the driver and Bill Ford.

Clayton Paddison ran his Model T at Bonneville salt flats

He was also featured on Jay Leno's Garage series.

Well, got 6 hours playtime in today at Frank N. Steins playhouse!

Looking good Hank! Nice to see you still building these things.

Lots of non-productive criticism in this topic.

Thanks Shane!

Everyone is entitle to their opinion and I know those that do not appreciate what I am doing, BUT! My car, My time, My money and My way of having fun. I have every single part to bring this 1927 Roadster Pick Up back to original fully restored, everything is just "Bolt On". Yes, overboard but the proving to myself as well as the theory of gaining a lot of power and fuel efficiency. If product improvement is a taboo.., then let's put back in the car, 2 piece valves, heavy rods, white metal rear end thrust bearings, and etc. If those that criticize bumble on their words.., then they have pink panties on their clothes line behind a locked gate and they are the only ones that live there. Mom said it best.., " If you can not say something nice.., keep your mouth shut"!

Very nice!

Thanks Les!!!


I still need adult supervision, Dad after a nap with the mouse getter. He will be a big 90 Feb 2, 2022. Glad I still have him.., he still inspirer's me every day!

Well another super day at Frank's playhouse. Did a lot of calculating for this and that and welding. The welds look rough and are cold so to say to control any warping. I regrind them, then weld them smooth with a copper backing bar inside and out. When it is all done will look like cast aluminum after texture and paint is applied.

Installed a cross over tube (orange tubing) for the oil pressure line coming from the oil pump on the other side. Also two "Shotgun" style low air cooling tubes for the oil. These have worked great in the past, and keeps the oil about 20 degrees cooler while cruising. Still have baffles to fabricate and oil pick up...., waiting on some 3/8" plate for the back catch of the oil pan as this will hold torque as required. 8 hours spent in THERAPY!

Inspection plate reused, just shorted 2 5/8" to compensate for the drag link clearance.

The oil cooler tubes are a neat concept! I'd like to add the idea to a project I'm working on if you don't mind, Hank.

GO FOR IT MIKE!!!!!!!

Consider the idea shamelessly stolen!

Or borrowed from a friend but your memory is getting fuzzy and you forgot his name!!!!!!!!

Always credit where due. Thanks for the thread.....

4 hours of play time today, but productive!


Setting and checking Crank Stroke Throws.


Baffling isn't it. Must have baffles in long oil pans or possible momentary pump starving (cavitation) could occur in hard braking, cornering, etc. In high constant speed engines running above 4,000 RPM's, a windage tray that profiles the crankshaft and rotating assembly is used to prevent oil striking hard into the sump which in turn causes air in the oil, causing really bad cavitation making an oil pump seize up.

Had about 8 hours playtime or therapy which ever works!!!!!!


Hank

Very ambitious project, LOVE IT!! As always superior workmanship jw

Too cold outside to plant banana trees so back to the playhouse!


Reenforce may look extreme on the pan but controlling torque and letting the clutch take the hit is what I am doing. Using the plane on two halves are better than one theory.



Since the rear crankshaft flange adapter is 4 1/4", doing a two piece seal retainer housing. Over the top, but wanted it where no questions later, should have, would have. These housings are used in very high endurance, top fuel, Le Mans, aircraft, etc engines. Never had one leak. Pre-assembly done and everything is going as planned 8 hours later.

Sometimes in the south we dig out ultra precise equipment to get ur dun! We normally do not show off..., "You know what I mean Vern"! Hold tat dar hand steady!

Looks good Hank. Your pretty good with the electric drill and concrete saw .

Another day of play so to say. Here are some simple methods for dimpling a pan for stroker clearances. I go a little more than needed as I more clearance is better in case something comes loose while in motion. Better to hear a rod knock than for it to strike the cases. Serious damage is a sure thing then.

Heres you a good way to make and store prints/templates. Go to your nearest place that forms steel roofs, get a piece in blue or any other color (normally 41" width before extrusion), transfer your prototypes by scribing and transfer punches, drill holes and cut out edges. We use a place in Europe that photographs our templates with a precision scale square. It then automatically writes the program with only the program writer putting in hole sizes and threads.

Busy day making master templates by transfer punch and scribe. Resting hands too after cutting. I am not going to make these templates or produce the adapter for sale, I am passing this on to two of our members and will let them release info as they see fit. No, I will not release their names out of respect.

That’s a really interesting idea for patterns!!
I like it

A suggestion. Take those panels and get them scanned and then they can be saved to a USB key.

Just saw this and could not stop reading , great project hope to hear it running some day .

Les,

We use a company in Europe that does our other photo scan with a precision scale square for reference, then it is converted to a CNC program. I am not going to produce but I am passing on the torch as stated before. Just like to be organized and preserve for another day. The pattern I purchased from you a few years back inspired me to take this on.., Thanks! The larger bell housing plate (known as plate #3) and flywheel hub will be inner changeable to accommodate any other transmission as one sees fit to use.

You will Craig, You will!

All the Best,

Hank

YEAH me to

Warwick, Just stick with your Toyota.......n

Long day of welding with plenty of cooling cycles. No warping.., PERIOD! Dead squared. Using round stock as a transition from thicker to thinner steel I was shown by an old boy in England. Really does a beautiful job. Used 1/32" shims to simulate the thickness of the gaskets. When I released the tension on all the bolts.. they all came out by hand after the metal was dead cold. A lot of sanding but worth it!

Very nice!

Craftsmanship! All I can say Hank.

20 hours later, 3 sets of master templates finished. Now on to material/hardware list with findings and instructions.




Final fitting after bead blasting and installing bungs for oil system with baffles, etc.



Decided to install a holding sump in the front for the timing gear to keep them wet. Will have a sprayer on the side.



The aluminum plate is a little heavy for my TIG, so letting a friend install his magic on it.

VERY nice!

Did a pre-fit double check for clearance with the Skat crank. Needed a little more in the front for safety. Will blend in later. Modified the dimple bars for either Model A mod or Skat Stroker mod. Adapter fits nice and snug.

Looks beefy Hank. I wish I had that kind of knowledge. Watching and learning here in Indiana.

Thanks Dallas.., Just trying to pass on what life teaches us! Since the engine's weight is being support by the pan, and adding a mid section (bell housing), the pan needs extra to counter horse power/torque since it is not being supported by the block like later engines.

Hank

Well after about 3 hard days labor it is shaping in nicely. Weld, grind, do again. Then glaze over with epoxy and sand, sand, and sand. Worth it, now comes the texture coat , painting and coating the inside.

Tesla and others said it best..., "If you can imagine something whether in principle or art.., then gain knowledge and pursue"!

I'm happy if I can make 35 mph on the flats. After that I get scared. Nice little fella on the seat, looks like a good companion. Good luck with your project, be safe, Gerrit

BEAUTIFUL job!

Thanks Les and Others!

I had a Great experience years back in my military career. I was selected for an exchange/collaboration team in adapting US aircraft weaponry to NATO forces and vise versa. Talk about R & D! Prototypes, experimental, camera mounting, etc. You had to fabricate an item within about 48 hours in time for the test, Best one year duty I ever had!

Humbled Hank

Are you ready for my next set of drawings? Hope I’m not holding the project up

Clean. clean, and more cleaning! hand sanding inside, double wipe with acetone, then spray two heavy coats of Gyptal with acetone as a reducer. Never had a peel. Don't forget oil injection to the front timing gears.


Starting the open driveshaft system using a conventional Model T rear end with mechanical brakes.

Tim, I can read your chicken scratch just as good as mine Brother!

Hank
My version of the pinion shaft for a open drive shaft.

Looks Great Les, Mine will be similar!!!!!

Will after sanding and prep.., here comes the texture and paint!

Using old flat washers to prevent texture paint (Truck Bed Liner Spray) and plug off holes. Gives a machined after casting effect plus keeps your bolts after tightening from making a mess.

TAH DAH!!!!!!

....wow....

Coming from you Scott..., WOW back at you! Thank You!

Humbled Hank

Absolutely beautiful work,…… I am duly impressed!

Well..., Perfect fit! I be Happy! On to the rear end mods for the open drive shaft system. Have to control torque, as one of my old professors used to say.., "it is your friend in power transmitting.., but a scorn woman from hell if not kept happy and in place"!

This is great work Hank, thanks for sharing

Thank You Steve! Here's more.

Going a little different from Les's mod. His is great, no doubt. I want to hold tight as I believe the weak link is in the casting of thin material in the housings, from torque tube/radius rod absorption to a "torque wing" retainer and back truss (holding closer to the source with a strong arm).

Using tubes and old flat washers will save you time in clean up from weld spatter, coming in hot on the welds.

Now that the non accessible area is cleaned up, on to the next section. Welds are built up as I will shape into a casted effect of webs when finished. Looks like a shop class project went bad! LOL!


Bending plate steel 1/4" is made easy if you have a shop press, drill press V block, small piece of steel!

You will see why this support becomes important in my design later, catching/retaining torque. If there is a failure, in theory, no damage to the internal components (Safety Break Away)! Using a still available Winters Quick Change yoke modified with mild steel square keyways with a retaining nut. That front snout has two back to back roller bearings in front of a Fun Project adjustable preload pinion bearing. Stayed tune to this channel for more fun with Dr Frank N. Stein, aka..., Humbled Hank.




Pretty stuff coming soon!

A good day in the playhouse. Machined and broached the yoke, machined polyurethane to fit behind the yoke as a harmonic silencer (straight cut gears love to resonate noise causing deep harmonics, creating metal fatigue). Grinding down the welds, etc.

Some very interesting stuff!

Hank- you're awful brave to post some many pictures of such shoddy work!

It will improve Tim I promise! I had to put the pixies in a time out! Thanks Man! LOL

Hank

You sure are good with that file and hand drill Hank! is that an entire roll of red tape?

Dallas you better quit giving away my master craftsman secrets..., dim dar be ah fighting' words mister! LOL


OK..., Now you can get a better picture how this will work! Front torque arm/truss with a rear truss! They will tie into the rear link supports to be determined later.

A very interesting approach. Thank you for the posting

Another long productive day!!!!!!

Interesting approach. Looking forward to more

There should be more to this by now. Are you slacking off? Sabine and I were not there that long and I have not been calling you that much!!

Other Priorities as the Grand God Children from England are planning on coming over! Plus Honey-Do's!


Hank

Henry K. Lee wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:04 am

Other Priorities as the Grand God Children from England are planning on coming over! Plus Honey-Do's!

Same problem, New Kitchen cabinets showed up and I was forced to stop on Scarlotte O'Hair but has her new trans and rear end from you installed now it just putting ALL the other pieces back together. Killing me running to the store in a normal car!

Well..., After a few delays, ie, my welder not big enough, brother Rick Rice tried to, not big enough, found some really good young guys in Chattanooga that did me proud! And as a bonus.., the wife went to Florida for a week! Goof off time.., I meant playtime.

The plates dialed in on the money with the crankshaft..., could not be happier than that. Had to machine a dumbing shaft for the dialing but part of the fun. ENJOY!


Hank

I really enjoy seeing nice fabrication work.

Looks great!

Decided to press my good fairy luck on this project. Mounted the flywheel, bell housing, and starter then connect power to check flywheel run out..., within 0.0002! Holy Crap..., me happy!

Looks great.

This could be a tv show!