Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

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Retro54
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Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Retro54 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:21 am

Good day! I've followed this forum off and on for years with two other model T's in the family, and myself being a GM man. But I've finally come to the ''T-side' with my dad and brother... This week an opportunity presented itself to become a caretaker for a neat little T and I was able to jump at the chance.

I'm now the proud owner of a 1915? cut-down touring. It certainly is a project, but is solid and should be able to be made into a neat little runner as is without too much trouble.

I was wondering if the guru's out there might be able to help me decipher the body number and car # from the brass plate which was on the wood firewall but is now under the seat with the body tag.

My body number is 115203588 (I think the first three digits mean January 2015) Am I correct?

My car # is 610650. Any ideas on dating based on that number? Or is this not a valid method for dating a car?

Unfortunate the original engine is no longer with the car. It's a 1922 casting date motor with starter. What are you going to do! haha. It'll be a fun little project.

Thank you in advance for any thoughts or information.
Attachments
a little bit of a front shot
a little bit of a front shot
side shot
side shot
Shot under the front seat.  You can see the two tags which are tacked on the passenger side.
Shot under the front seat. You can see the two tags which are tacked on the passenger side.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:04 pm

I'm not familiar with interpreting the tags, but the body is 1915/1916, and I believe the radiator is too. The rest of the car appears to be a collection of later parts, also known affectionately as a Johnny Cash car or a parts salad. As Dude Lester said, "That don't hurt the runnin' of it none." I expect you will have fun with it. In dealing with the Model T's unique design, a good place to start is here:

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html

This is something you should check: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

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CudaMan
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by CudaMan » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:09 pm

Welcome! Engine (Car) number 610650 was one of 1015 engines assembled on October 24, 1914. I will leave it to others to comment on the body number and other features of your car from the pictures you posted.
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:58 pm

Engine (Car) number 610650 was one of 1015 engines assembled on October 24, 1914.
Yes, but the engine in the car is 1919 or later (starter car), so I assume the 1922 dating is from the engine serial number not given, and that 610650 is something else.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

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Retro54
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Retro54 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:08 pm

Steve and company, yes. The engine is 6484491 which makes the engine a Sept. 1922 model if I am reading this correctly:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm

Thanks guys! I'm calling it a Farmer's Special. Ha

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RustyFords
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by RustyFords » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:04 pm

I'm digging the old paint on the body.

Looks like a good start to a T.
1924 Touring

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Retro54
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Retro54 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:07 pm

Me too... the green paint just look 'right' on this car.

Andy


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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Erik Johnson » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:17 pm

I can see the metal body tag on the seat riser in your last photo.

It appears to have a Beaudette body tag. If the body is from January 1915, then there should be a dot between the month, year, and serial number as follows:

1 * 15 * 203588 (the dots, represented as asterisks here, would actually be more on center)

The patent plate firewall tag that someone mounted on the seat riser would not match the serial number on the original block as those numbers diverged earlier in Model T production.

I can see in the photo that your door handle is the 1915, 1916 and early 1917 style.

The high armrests are not indicative of a 1915 body. However, that may be neither here nor there as something "Mickey Mouse" going on there because the top bracket is too far forward for a touring (or a roadster, for that matter). Someone has added roadster top brackets to the back of the seat.

If you want someone to scrutinize the body, I suggest contacting Royce Peterson at his website, https://modeltfordfix.com

Your car is a collage or a marriage of various parts so discussing what is or isn't correct is somewhat beside the point.


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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Drkbp » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:32 pm

Congratulations Andrew,

You may very well have a very early 1915 touring car. The wider/shorter tag appears to be the body tag and someone did you great favor when they tacked it on the seat frame!
It was located on the left of the dash just under the cowl which has marked the tag upper left corner if I'm seeing it correctly. Please show us another closeup of the tags if you will.

"Real" 1915 Touring cars are few and far between. The "1 15 203588" tends to confirm early '15 as well.

Other examples of tags at this time tend to show that your car probably had an engine number in the vicinity of #620,000. I also believe that the body is probably a Beaudette. You may find a "B" on the heel kick panel just under where the tags are tacked. See if there is a B there when you have a chance.

Very interesting car and look forward to some more photos!

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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by George N Lake Ozark » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:57 pm

Looks like a Cut Off Touring car. zCommon thing to do back in the day, would make a cute PickUp truck .


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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:59 pm

The 1915 style open cars were delayed due to difficulties manufacturing the new cowl design. The sheet metal presses used for the earlier style bodies did not quite handle the more complex shapes for the new cowl. Therefore, real production of the '15 style cars did not begin until January 1915. The body number indicates that your touring car may have been among the first few hundred such cars built, assuming the body tag is original to the car. Under the front seat is not generally the original location for either of those body tags. The steel tag (beginning 1 15 xxx) was generally nailed to the floor sills or risers, under the front floor mat. The fancier brass tag should have been on the inside of the firewall above the steering column base. The serial number on that brass plate was sometimes called the "car number", however, it was NOT the car's serial number which officially was the engine's serial number. In the beginning of model T production, the car and engine numbers did match, at least on some cars. However, after a couple years, the two numbers drifted apart and the "car" number became a combination of meaningless, and downright confusing. Sometime fairly early in 1915 style production, Ford quit stamping those brass firewall plates with any number, although the same plate with the boss to stamp a number continued to be used as the patent information tag (without the number stamped) for about two years. That tag was then replaced with a smaller aluminum tag for the rest of production.
The "serial" number stamped on the brass tag does not give a real manufacture date, although it can narrow down the time-frame a bit. For most of brass era model T production, there was no reliable comparison between the three numbers. Body's dated numbers give an approximation what month it was built, and engine serial numbers can tell you what day the engine was officially assembled. However, what day those things were put together is still open to a lot of speculation. Original intact cars have been found with bodies dated well before the engine's date. They have also been found a month or more the other direction. There are many explanations for such discrepancies, we just need to accept much of that.

A great looking project! Make it roadworthy. Enjoy it! Then, maybe, make it a bit more "right" as you go along. It may be one of the earliest real '15s around?

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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Retro54 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:11 pm

Thank you all for your comments and thoughts! I know there is a lot of collective knowledge on this forum!

I'm under no grand illusions of what this car might be... it's fun to piece together the information.

Regarding the brass tags, they were put under the seat a while ago. So cool to still have them! The corner of the brass "Car number" tag is still on the wood firewall, behind the body. Someone removed it without taking the body and firewall apart.

It's titled as a roadster from 1962.. so I think it's been cut down a while.

My intention right now is to get it running and be able to enjoy it. Nothing cosmetic planned as of right now, although I'd love to add the sheet metal back on, and will likely add the turtle deck back, just because. I really enjoy the story the car tells as it sits. In our family, we have a restored 23, a very original 1916 and now I got this bugger. All were touring's as they left the factory. I think lined up together, they will tell a heck of a story!

Some more photos to enjoy.

Andy
Attachments
Rear end
Rear end
inside of firewall... no speedo or horn.. ohh well.
inside of firewall... no speedo or horn.. ohh well.
turtle deck is clean and solid!
turtle deck is clean and solid!
Sheet metal
Sheet metal
Accessory front spring mounting
Accessory front spring mounting

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Retro54
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Retro54 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:16 pm

Few more sheet metal shots...
Attachments
20190402_214000.jpg
20190402_213955.jpg


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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Erik Johnson » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:32 pm

Wayne Sheldon:

The body serial number tag on early 1915 Beaudette bodies were nailed on the seat riser as shown in the photo, not on the floor riser. Nailing them on floor riser came later.

See this thread which shows tags on the seat riser in the vicinity of the gas tank cap:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1232844254


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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Drkbp » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:26 pm

Correct rear axle.
A number of quadrant variations could be found on this early of a 1915. Even a '14 style brass one.
Probably an original dash, bulb horn.

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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Ruxstel24 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:30 pm

That's gonna be fun to give a new life !!
The registration number is probably the original engine number.
As long as you can plate it, who needs to know ? :)


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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by MWalker » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:06 pm

The turtle may not work with the cutoff Touring body. What most folks did back in the day was cut off the back half of a Touring Car body and add a pickup bed, either store-bought or homemade. That made the vehicle more versatile for deliveries and such. Adding a pickup bed would be more authentic than the turtle, and besides, the turtle you have is from a 1919-22 car.

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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Oldav8tor » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:28 pm

I can see you're having fun already :D Welcome to the affliction!
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Duey_C » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:08 pm

Beautiful T and simply gorgeous turtle deck with the battery cut out in the tin at the front for the 19's! I think.
I'd personally love some pics of the runs in the dipped paint on your turtle deck. I have one that looks almost the same currently on the '18 here! Lotsa runs, drips but no err's.
Whew, it's already apart. You're not going to paint it are you?
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by KWTownsend » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:40 am

A turtledeck will indeed for on the back of a cut off touring car. I had a 1923-25 turtle deck on the back of my 1919 cut off touring.

Mine was like this for years before I found and restored a back seat section.
1919 before backseat.jpg
: ^ )
Attachments
1919 after back seat.jpg

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Retro54
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Retro54 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:59 am

Nice 1919...

Will take photos of the turtle for ya next time I'm out at the home garage. Paint? None of us in my family are body men, so the car will not see a lick of paint, but will end up running like a swiss watch! It tells a story as it sits and is solid enough that I wouldn't want to touch it. Just going to get it running, buy some tires and enjoy it!


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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:27 am

You have some really nice looking sheet metal to go with that car, and I think your plan to assemble as-is will result in a very interesting vehicle. Just as an aside, my experience has been that vehicles like yours garner far more looks and interest than a similarly restored car when placed side by side.
Scott Conger

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Retro54
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Retro54 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:50 pm

Thank you all for the encouraging comments and information! Was able to snap some photos of the ID tags tonight.
Attachments
Body tag as found location.
Body tag as found location.
Close up of B on foot riser
Close up of B on foot riser
B on foot riser
B on foot riser

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Retro54
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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by Retro54 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:52 pm

Some more
Attachments
Car number tag... most recent patent date is 1911
Car number tag... most recent patent date is 1911
Ghosting where car bumberctag once wS
Ghosting where car bumberctag once wS
Script on back of radiator
Script on back of radiator

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Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions

Post by John Warren » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:02 pm

That will make you a great car, welcome.
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Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something :P

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