Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
-
Topic author - Posts: 547
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
- First Name: Andrew
- Last Name: Blaydon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Cut-down touring
- Location: Middletown
- Board Member Since: 2018
Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Good day! I've followed this forum off and on for years with two other model T's in the family, and myself being a GM man. But I've finally come to the ''T-side' with my dad and brother... This week an opportunity presented itself to become a caretaker for a neat little T and I was able to jump at the chance.
I'm now the proud owner of a 1915? cut-down touring. It certainly is a project, but is solid and should be able to be made into a neat little runner as is without too much trouble.
I was wondering if the guru's out there might be able to help me decipher the body number and car # from the brass plate which was on the wood firewall but is now under the seat with the body tag.
My body number is 115203588 (I think the first three digits mean January 2015) Am I correct?
My car # is 610650. Any ideas on dating based on that number? Or is this not a valid method for dating a car?
Unfortunate the original engine is no longer with the car. It's a 1922 casting date motor with starter. What are you going to do! haha. It'll be a fun little project.
Thank you in advance for any thoughts or information.
I'm now the proud owner of a 1915? cut-down touring. It certainly is a project, but is solid and should be able to be made into a neat little runner as is without too much trouble.
I was wondering if the guru's out there might be able to help me decipher the body number and car # from the brass plate which was on the wood firewall but is now under the seat with the body tag.
My body number is 115203588 (I think the first three digits mean January 2015) Am I correct?
My car # is 610650. Any ideas on dating based on that number? Or is this not a valid method for dating a car?
Unfortunate the original engine is no longer with the car. It's a 1922 casting date motor with starter. What are you going to do! haha. It'll be a fun little project.
Thank you in advance for any thoughts or information.
-
- Posts: 6496
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Jelf
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
- Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
- MTFCA Number: 16175
- MTFCI Number: 14758
- Board Member Since: 2007
- Contact:
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
I'm not familiar with interpreting the tags, but the body is 1915/1916, and I believe the radiator is too. The rest of the car appears to be a collection of later parts, also known affectionately as a Johnny Cash car or a parts salad. As Dude Lester said, "That don't hurt the runnin' of it none." I expect you will have fun with it. In dealing with the Model T's unique design, a good place to start is here:
http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html
This is something you should check: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html
http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html
This is something you should check: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
-
- Posts: 2401
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:17 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Strange
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Cut Off Touring (now a pickup)
- Location: Hillsboro, MO
- MTFCA Number: 30944
- MTFCI Number: 23667
- Board Member Since: 2013
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Welcome! Engine (Car) number 610650 was one of 1015 engines assembled on October 24, 1914. I will leave it to others to comment on the body number and other features of your car from the pictures you posted.
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)
-
- Posts: 6496
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Jelf
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
- Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
- MTFCA Number: 16175
- MTFCI Number: 14758
- Board Member Since: 2007
- Contact:
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Yes, but the engine in the car is 1919 or later (starter car), so I assume the 1922 dating is from the engine serial number not given, and that 610650 is something else.Engine (Car) number 610650 was one of 1015 engines assembled on October 24, 1914.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
-
Topic author - Posts: 547
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
- First Name: Andrew
- Last Name: Blaydon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Cut-down touring
- Location: Middletown
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Steve and company, yes. The engine is 6484491 which makes the engine a Sept. 1922 model if I am reading this correctly:
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm
Thanks guys! I'm calling it a Farmer's Special. Ha
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm
Thanks guys! I'm calling it a Farmer's Special. Ha
-
- Posts: 1559
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:16 am
- First Name: Don
- Last Name: Allen
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Touring
- Location: Houston, TX
- MTFCA Number: 50001
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
I'm digging the old paint on the body.
Looks like a good start to a T.
Looks like a good start to a T.
1924 Touring
-
Topic author - Posts: 547
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
- First Name: Andrew
- Last Name: Blaydon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Cut-down touring
- Location: Middletown
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Me too... the green paint just look 'right' on this car.
Andy
Andy
-
- Posts: 864
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:25 pm
- First Name: Erik
- Last Name: Johnson
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
I can see the metal body tag on the seat riser in your last photo.
It appears to have a Beaudette body tag. If the body is from January 1915, then there should be a dot between the month, year, and serial number as follows:
1 * 15 * 203588 (the dots, represented as asterisks here, would actually be more on center)
The patent plate firewall tag that someone mounted on the seat riser would not match the serial number on the original block as those numbers diverged earlier in Model T production.
I can see in the photo that your door handle is the 1915, 1916 and early 1917 style.
The high armrests are not indicative of a 1915 body. However, that may be neither here nor there as something "Mickey Mouse" going on there because the top bracket is too far forward for a touring (or a roadster, for that matter). Someone has added roadster top brackets to the back of the seat.
If you want someone to scrutinize the body, I suggest contacting Royce Peterson at his website, https://modeltfordfix.com
Your car is a collage or a marriage of various parts so discussing what is or isn't correct is somewhat beside the point.
It appears to have a Beaudette body tag. If the body is from January 1915, then there should be a dot between the month, year, and serial number as follows:
1 * 15 * 203588 (the dots, represented as asterisks here, would actually be more on center)
The patent plate firewall tag that someone mounted on the seat riser would not match the serial number on the original block as those numbers diverged earlier in Model T production.
I can see in the photo that your door handle is the 1915, 1916 and early 1917 style.
The high armrests are not indicative of a 1915 body. However, that may be neither here nor there as something "Mickey Mouse" going on there because the top bracket is too far forward for a touring (or a roadster, for that matter). Someone has added roadster top brackets to the back of the seat.
If you want someone to scrutinize the body, I suggest contacting Royce Peterson at his website, https://modeltfordfix.com
Your car is a collage or a marriage of various parts so discussing what is or isn't correct is somewhat beside the point.
-
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
- First Name: Kenneth
- Last Name: Parker
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914, 1925
- Location: Houston, Texas
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Congratulations Andrew,
You may very well have a very early 1915 touring car. The wider/shorter tag appears to be the body tag and someone did you great favor when they tacked it on the seat frame!
It was located on the left of the dash just under the cowl which has marked the tag upper left corner if I'm seeing it correctly. Please show us another closeup of the tags if you will.
"Real" 1915 Touring cars are few and far between. The "1 15 203588" tends to confirm early '15 as well.
Other examples of tags at this time tend to show that your car probably had an engine number in the vicinity of #620,000. I also believe that the body is probably a Beaudette. You may find a "B" on the heel kick panel just under where the tags are tacked. See if there is a B there when you have a chance.
Very interesting car and look forward to some more photos!
You may very well have a very early 1915 touring car. The wider/shorter tag appears to be the body tag and someone did you great favor when they tacked it on the seat frame!
It was located on the left of the dash just under the cowl which has marked the tag upper left corner if I'm seeing it correctly. Please show us another closeup of the tags if you will.
"Real" 1915 Touring cars are few and far between. The "1 15 203588" tends to confirm early '15 as well.
Other examples of tags at this time tend to show that your car probably had an engine number in the vicinity of #620,000. I also believe that the body is probably a Beaudette. You may find a "B" on the heel kick panel just under where the tags are tacked. See if there is a B there when you have a chance.
Very interesting car and look forward to some more photos!
-
- Posts: 324
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:15 pm
- First Name: George P
- Last Name: Clipner
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Late '26 Touring
- Location: LakeOzark,Missourah
- MTFCI Number: 18665
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Looks like a Cut Off Touring car. zCommon thing to do back in the day, would make a cute PickUp truck .
-
- Posts: 3675
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
- First Name: Wayne
- Last Name: Sheldon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
- Location: Grass Valley California, USA
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
The 1915 style open cars were delayed due to difficulties manufacturing the new cowl design. The sheet metal presses used for the earlier style bodies did not quite handle the more complex shapes for the new cowl. Therefore, real production of the '15 style cars did not begin until January 1915. The body number indicates that your touring car may have been among the first few hundred such cars built, assuming the body tag is original to the car. Under the front seat is not generally the original location for either of those body tags. The steel tag (beginning 1 15 xxx) was generally nailed to the floor sills or risers, under the front floor mat. The fancier brass tag should have been on the inside of the firewall above the steering column base. The serial number on that brass plate was sometimes called the "car number", however, it was NOT the car's serial number which officially was the engine's serial number. In the beginning of model T production, the car and engine numbers did match, at least on some cars. However, after a couple years, the two numbers drifted apart and the "car" number became a combination of meaningless, and downright confusing. Sometime fairly early in 1915 style production, Ford quit stamping those brass firewall plates with any number, although the same plate with the boss to stamp a number continued to be used as the patent information tag (without the number stamped) for about two years. That tag was then replaced with a smaller aluminum tag for the rest of production.
The "serial" number stamped on the brass tag does not give a real manufacture date, although it can narrow down the time-frame a bit. For most of brass era model T production, there was no reliable comparison between the three numbers. Body's dated numbers give an approximation what month it was built, and engine serial numbers can tell you what day the engine was officially assembled. However, what day those things were put together is still open to a lot of speculation. Original intact cars have been found with bodies dated well before the engine's date. They have also been found a month or more the other direction. There are many explanations for such discrepancies, we just need to accept much of that.
A great looking project! Make it roadworthy. Enjoy it! Then, maybe, make it a bit more "right" as you go along. It may be one of the earliest real '15s around?
The "serial" number stamped on the brass tag does not give a real manufacture date, although it can narrow down the time-frame a bit. For most of brass era model T production, there was no reliable comparison between the three numbers. Body's dated numbers give an approximation what month it was built, and engine serial numbers can tell you what day the engine was officially assembled. However, what day those things were put together is still open to a lot of speculation. Original intact cars have been found with bodies dated well before the engine's date. They have also been found a month or more the other direction. There are many explanations for such discrepancies, we just need to accept much of that.
A great looking project! Make it roadworthy. Enjoy it! Then, maybe, make it a bit more "right" as you go along. It may be one of the earliest real '15s around?
-
Topic author - Posts: 547
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
- First Name: Andrew
- Last Name: Blaydon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Cut-down touring
- Location: Middletown
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Thank you all for your comments and thoughts! I know there is a lot of collective knowledge on this forum!
I'm under no grand illusions of what this car might be... it's fun to piece together the information.
Regarding the brass tags, they were put under the seat a while ago. So cool to still have them! The corner of the brass "Car number" tag is still on the wood firewall, behind the body. Someone removed it without taking the body and firewall apart.
It's titled as a roadster from 1962.. so I think it's been cut down a while.
My intention right now is to get it running and be able to enjoy it. Nothing cosmetic planned as of right now, although I'd love to add the sheet metal back on, and will likely add the turtle deck back, just because. I really enjoy the story the car tells as it sits. In our family, we have a restored 23, a very original 1916 and now I got this bugger. All were touring's as they left the factory. I think lined up together, they will tell a heck of a story!
Some more photos to enjoy.
Andy
I'm under no grand illusions of what this car might be... it's fun to piece together the information.
Regarding the brass tags, they were put under the seat a while ago. So cool to still have them! The corner of the brass "Car number" tag is still on the wood firewall, behind the body. Someone removed it without taking the body and firewall apart.
It's titled as a roadster from 1962.. so I think it's been cut down a while.
My intention right now is to get it running and be able to enjoy it. Nothing cosmetic planned as of right now, although I'd love to add the sheet metal back on, and will likely add the turtle deck back, just because. I really enjoy the story the car tells as it sits. In our family, we have a restored 23, a very original 1916 and now I got this bugger. All were touring's as they left the factory. I think lined up together, they will tell a heck of a story!
Some more photos to enjoy.
Andy
-
Topic author - Posts: 547
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
- First Name: Andrew
- Last Name: Blaydon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Cut-down touring
- Location: Middletown
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Few more sheet metal shots...
-
- Posts: 864
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:25 pm
- First Name: Erik
- Last Name: Johnson
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Wayne Sheldon:
The body serial number tag on early 1915 Beaudette bodies were nailed on the seat riser as shown in the photo, not on the floor riser. Nailing them on floor riser came later.
See this thread which shows tags on the seat riser in the vicinity of the gas tank cap:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1232844254
The body serial number tag on early 1915 Beaudette bodies were nailed on the seat riser as shown in the photo, not on the floor riser. Nailing them on floor riser came later.
See this thread which shows tags on the seat riser in the vicinity of the gas tank cap:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1232844254
-
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
- First Name: Kenneth
- Last Name: Parker
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914, 1925
- Location: Houston, Texas
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Correct rear axle.
A number of quadrant variations could be found on this early of a 1915. Even a '14 style brass one.
Probably an original dash, bulb horn.
A number of quadrant variations could be found on this early of a 1915. Even a '14 style brass one.
Probably an original dash, bulb horn.
-
- Posts: 2345
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:25 am
- First Name: Dave
- Last Name: Hanlon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Touring car
- Location: NE Ohio
- MTFCA Number: 50191
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
That's gonna be fun to give a new life !!
The registration number is probably the original engine number.
As long as you can plate it, who needs to know ?
The registration number is probably the original engine number.
As long as you can plate it, who needs to know ?
-
- Posts: 475
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:49 am
- First Name: Mike
- Last Name: Walker
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Roadster Pickup
- Location: NW Arkansas
- MTFCA Number: 314
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
The turtle may not work with the cutoff Touring body. What most folks did back in the day was cut off the back half of a Touring Car body and add a pickup bed, either store-bought or homemade. That made the vehicle more versatile for deliveries and such. Adding a pickup bed would be more authentic than the turtle, and besides, the turtle you have is from a 1919-22 car.
-
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
- First Name: Tim
- Last Name: Juhl
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Thumb of Michigan
- MTFCA Number: 50297
- MTFCI Number: 24810
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
I can see you're having fun already Welcome to the affliction!
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
-
- Posts: 1518
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 pm
- First Name: Duane
- Last Name: Cooley
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 18 Runabout, 24 Runabout for 20yrs, 25 TT, late Center Door project, open express pickup
- Location: central MN
- MTFCA Number: 32488
- Board Member Since: 2015
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Beautiful T and simply gorgeous turtle deck with the battery cut out in the tin at the front for the 19's! I think.
I'd personally love some pics of the runs in the dipped paint on your turtle deck. I have one that looks almost the same currently on the '18 here! Lotsa runs, drips but no err's.
Whew, it's already apart. You're not going to paint it are you?
I'd personally love some pics of the runs in the dipped paint on your turtle deck. I have one that looks almost the same currently on the '18 here! Lotsa runs, drips but no err's.
Whew, it's already apart. You're not going to paint it are you?
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated
-
- Posts: 1128
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:51 pm
- First Name: Keith
- Last Name: Townsend
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: late 1911 touring, 1915 runabout, 1919 touring, brass speedster
- Location: Gresham, Orygun
- MTFCA Number: 14778
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- MTFCI Number: 16305
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
A turtledeck will indeed for on the back of a cut off touring car. I had a 1923-25 turtle deck on the back of my 1919 cut off touring.
Mine was like this for years before I found and restored a back seat section.
: ^ )
Mine was like this for years before I found and restored a back seat section.
: ^ )
-
Topic author - Posts: 547
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
- First Name: Andrew
- Last Name: Blaydon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Cut-down touring
- Location: Middletown
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Nice 1919...
Will take photos of the turtle for ya next time I'm out at the home garage. Paint? None of us in my family are body men, so the car will not see a lick of paint, but will end up running like a swiss watch! It tells a story as it sits and is solid enough that I wouldn't want to touch it. Just going to get it running, buy some tires and enjoy it!
Will take photos of the turtle for ya next time I'm out at the home garage. Paint? None of us in my family are body men, so the car will not see a lick of paint, but will end up running like a swiss watch! It tells a story as it sits and is solid enough that I wouldn't want to touch it. Just going to get it running, buy some tires and enjoy it!
-
- Posts: 6435
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
- First Name: Scott
- Last Name: Conger
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
- Location: Clark, WY
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
You have some really nice looking sheet metal to go with that car, and I think your plan to assemble as-is will result in a very interesting vehicle. Just as an aside, my experience has been that vehicles like yours garner far more looks and interest than a similarly restored car when placed side by side.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
-
Topic author - Posts: 547
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
- First Name: Andrew
- Last Name: Blaydon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Cut-down touring
- Location: Middletown
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
Thank you all for the encouraging comments and information! Was able to snap some photos of the ID tags tonight.
-
- Posts: 1069
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Warren
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14 Roadster, 25 Pickup , 26 Canadian Touring , and a 24-28 TA race car
- Location: Henderson, Nevada
Re: Lurker no longer - Now a 1915? Model T Owner - Body # questions
That will make you a great car, welcome.
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something