MTFCA Forum

I use Zerex Original green antifreeze with IAT (Inorganic Additive Technology), not OAT. The directions recommend a 50/50 antifreeze to water mixture, but that is for modern engines with water pumps. I have heard that in a terms-siphon system, the greater the antifreeze to water ratio, the less effective is cooling ability (heat transfer) of the engine. Here in Florida, where this week the temperature has been in the 80’s and reaches the 90’s in the summer, what would you recommend as a more effective antifreeze to water mixture to ensure the most efficient heat transfer to avoid overheating. Jim Patrick

I use Prestone green stuff. I live in southern California where it rarely freezes but can get up to the high 90's and sometimes over 100. I live in the mountains so have some steep grades to pull. I have a good radiator flat tube and use no waterpump. It does not bubble and I usually put in one container of anti freeze and top off with distilled water. I haven't had any problems. Sometimes on a very hot day, after I come up the hill to my house, and I turn off the engine it will gurgle for a few seconds, but does not boil over. The motometer is usually about the center of the circle.
Norm

Jim

as an ex-Floridian I can state with certainty that I never worried whether or not my coolant was the most efficient at cooling, I worried whether or not my coolant was providing 100% corrosion resistance.

If you are not overheating and do not have brass to polish stains out of, don't worry about it. Yes, the specific heat difference of water to coolant is known, and measurable. However, with a radiator that is in any kind of decent condition, the effect is really too small to worry about, while the corrosion potential of water to coolant is 100% and indeed something to worry about.

To those that say "hell, my pap and my grand-pap never used coolant, and neither do I!", I say this: "buy a spare block while they are still available".

Thank you Norman and Scott. Okay Scott, what antifreeze do you use and at what mixture ratio do you use to ensure maximum corrosion control? I have a new radiator. Do you use distilled water to minimize mineral deposits? Jim Patrick

I keep a gallon of distilled water in the garage for the radiator and the battery (any vehicle).

In Florida, I bought Prestone concentrate and mixed 50/50 with distilled water to save (a very little) money. I don't mess with that now. I just buy premixed Prestone 50/50 and keep an antifreeze tester handy and make sure it is good for -35F (I dope it with a little concentrate if I have to drop the freeze point a bit). NOTE: too much concentration of anti-freeze actually raises the freeze point and reduces cooling ability which while counterintuitive, is true.

I accidentally ran concentrated antifreeze in FL once and most certainly had overheating problems (ran hot when it should not have). No harm, no foul, but was a learning experience to PAY ATTENTION to labels! It vexed me until I got home from my trip and studied the empty bottle. I felt like a dope, but like I said, no harm, no foul, but brother, did it make paying attention to the spark setting important!

Put this in the dumb question pile if you need to, but why do you need antifreeze in Florida with temps in the 70's plus? If it is to prevent rust/corosion in the system there are other solutions which will do that, without the risk of paint damage and the promotion of leaks in the cooling system.
I use soluble oil in clean rainwater.

Allan from down under.

jiminbartow wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:33 pm

Thank you Norman and Scott. Okay Scott, what antifreeze do you use and at what mixture ratio do you use to ensure maximum corrosion control? I have a new radiator. Do you use distilled water to minimize mineral deposits? Jim Patrick

Use it the way the manufacturer suggests, 50/50. Why second guess them?

Allan wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:07 am

Put this in the dumb question pile if you need to, but why do you need antifreeze in Florida with temps in the 70's plus? If it is to prevent rust/corosion in the system there are other solutions which will do that, without the risk of paint damage and the promotion of leaks in the cooling system.
I use soluble oil in clean rainwater.

Allan from down under.

Sure, there's options. This is the option he's considering. As to paint damage, I've spilled more than my fair share of anti-freeze on my paint. Just wipe it off and move on. Never any paint damage. Heck, if there were, I wouldn't have a bit of paint left on my hood! Never any coolant leaks either, except from my water pump, (OH NO!! ) .

Here in Florida, where this week the temperature has been in the 80’s and reaches the 90’s in the summer, what would you recommend as a more effective antifreeze to water mixture to ensure the most efficient heat transfer to avoid overheating.

Reside in north part of FL, so rarely get freezing, but can happen. Three weeks ago temp went down to 29 degrees F. Burrrr


So the ideal for me is that the high rad. high head T's total cooling system (radiator, block hoses) hold approx. 3.125 gallons.

I just add a jug of concentrated green Prestone, 1 gallon jug. Then top off the other 2.125 gallons with distilled water, typically won't take all of the two gallon jugs of water, probably as a quick drain prior, some old remains. Anyway, the mix is just shy of 50/50 or so, but that is ok and simple. That mix is great for cooling and no worry on freezing if I take the T to a north winter tour sometime. Never worry about over heating, because I always check the coolant level, and top off with distilled if needed!

Green antifreeze at 50/50 works very well. Name-brand antifreeze has wetting agents, anti-foam agents, anti-corrosion agents, and other additives that allow it to perform better than plain water when used as directed. Anti-freeze is NOT designed to be used without water. Anti-freeze raises the boiling point of the coolant, which prevents steam pockets. It does not impede free circulation, and probably facilitates it. Plain water at the boiling point is not a very good coolant, and any bubbles in the system dramatically reduce the specific heat of the coolant and act to prevent full contact of the coolant with hot engine surfaces. Bubbles can also contribute to erosion, corrosion, and scale deposition. I'd expect to find that anitfreeze solution resists oxygen entrainment better than plain water.

I live in Florida and don't use antifreeze at all. I add water soluble oil which protects against corrosion.

Anti-freeze does a better job of cooling and preventing corrosion than does water and soluble oil.

I live in Central Pennsylvania. Weather here can vary from very hot to very cold.

The T that has been in the family for over 60 years has straight glycerol (green) antifreeze. Never a 50/50 mix.

Over heating has never been a problem.

Too, we do have a water pump.

You've lucky

Pure anti-freeze will freeze at 0F

50/50 offers far better freeze protection and better cooling, to boot

Science as well as GOOGLE is your friend

Common automotive anti-freeze, WHEN USED AS DIRECTED, is actually a specialized coolant "system" with, among numerous other beneficial properties, the proven ability to resist freezing to temperatures well below 0 F. If you have a water pump, it will prolong the life of the pump seal by preventing corrosion particulates and providing lubricity. It's one of the least expensive and longest-lasting of the several fluids used in automobiles.

jiminbartow wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:02 pm

I use Zerex Original green antifreeze with IAT (Inorganic Additive Technology), not OAT. The directions recommend a 50/50 antifreeze to water mixture, but that is for modern engines with water pumps. I have heard that in a terms-siphon system, the greater the antifreeze to water ratio, the less effective is cooling ability (heat transfer) of the engine. Here in Florida, where this week the temperature has been in the 80’s and reaches the 90’s in the summer, what would you recommend as a more effective antifreeze to water mixture to ensure the most efficient heat transfer to avoid overheating. Jim Patrick

From previous discussion viewtopic.php?t=24541&p=188032
The answer to your question is dependent upon how much heat your engine would be generating in order to ensure that your cooling system (water & oil systems) would effectively maintain a proper operating engine temperature. Most documentation suggest a range between 180 -210 °F. .....Several older discussions have noted that their water cooling system was working properly when there was between a 30-90 °F temperature difference between the coolant entering the radiator and that exiting https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4644. The cooling capacity of a radiator is dependent on many factors - air flow through it being a major contributor.
So the answer to your question also depends on how well your cooling system is set-up to can keep engine temperatures in range. The "cooling system" isn't just the radiator and fan (or presence of a water pump) but also includes the engine bay. The bay is designed to create a negative pressure to help draw air through the radiator and out through the fins of the cover (leave the pans on).
Since a 50/50 ratio provides an upper boiling point of 265°F, I would assume your Okay. A 180°F thermostat can also control the thermosphoning action by establishing the operating range - after that its up to the "cooling system" to prevent boil over.

I've always used a 50-50 Mix of conventional green antifreeze with distilled water.... Distilled because I see no need to introduce unwanted minerals into the system. I consider the anti-corrosion properties of such a mix of great importance, especially since I have an aluminum head. I've driven the hills of Southern Indiana with all seats filled and 90+ degrees temperature and never, ever, experienced a boil over. Currently the temp here in Michigan is 19° and I'm not worried about cracking the block. I do have a Bergs flat tube radiator so that gets part of the credit for keeping things cool in the summer.

The topic of using an antifreeze has been around for a while.

Many have, in the past, disagree with me on the use of 100 % green glycerol as a coolant. So....

As an alternate to the 50/50 discussion of alcohol and water, please let me suggest alternate antifreeze's:

Here are the most common types of alcohol and their freezing points:

• Beer. Beer can have an ABV anywhere between 3% and 12%, but on average you can expect beer to freeze at about 28 °F. Even if you find yourself asking "does beer expire?" it really should not be stored in a freezer for any extended length of time. Beer in a freezer can not only freeze and ruin the quality of the beer, it may even explode causing a bigger headache. You really should invest in different keg sizes for your bar or do forecasting to limit your excess inventory and avoid the issue in the first place.

• Wine. Wine tends to have a slightly higher ABV than beer, so the freezing point is lower. But, if you're asking "does wine freeze" the answer is most certainly yes. Wine freezes at an average of 23 °F. In action, this means a standard 750mL bottle of wine will freeze solid after about 5 hours in a freezer. However, there are different wine bottle sizes, so your experience may vary.

• 40-proof liquor. Low-proof liquors like Irish cream are only slightly more cold-resistant than wine. These spirits will freeze around 22 °F and are the most likely alcohol to suffer issues in a freezer. If left for too long, these liquors can develop a slushy-like texture and the chemical makeup will forever be altered. This means the liquor will still taste off when thawed.

• 64-proof liquor. Mid-range liquors like Bacardi Razz or Fireball fall in this category and will freeze around -10 °F. If you happen to have a handle of liquor in this range lying around, you can toss it in the freezer with little worry. However, you'll still want to keep an eye on the expiration date as even the cold cannot stave off oxidation forever.

• 80-proof liquor. The most common proof for hard liquor, 80-proof bottles will not freeze unless they are subjected to temperatures of -17 °F or below. This is why so many people think alcohol can't freeze because their conventional freezer doesn't get this cold.

Some additional facts
In the early years of antifreeze/coolants (1920s & 30s) glycerin saw some usage, but because of higher cost and weaker freeze point depression, it was not competitive with ethylene glycol. Glycerin is a by-product of the manufacture of biodiesel (fatty acid methyl esters) made by reacting natural vegetable or animal fats with methanol. Biodiesel fuel is becoming increasingly important and is expected to gain a large market share in the next several years. Regular diesel fuels blended with 2%, 5%, and 20% biodiesel are now commercially available. The large amount of glycerin generated from high volume usage of biodiesel fuel has resulted in this chemical becoming cost competitive with the glycols currently used in engine coolants. For this reason, and lower toxicity comparable to that of propylene glycol, hence perceived as "environmentally green". But really not 100%.
Propylene glycol and glycerin often appear the same since they are colourless, odourless, sweet and syrupy. Although they share some physical properties, they have very distinctive features and it is very important to identify these compounds accurately due to the toxicity of propylene glycol. Glycerin is also called glycerol. It is used in the food industry, cosmetic productions, and pharmaceutical applications. But the applications of propylene glycol are limited due to its toxic behaviour. None the less it better than the other types

If you live in a soft water area, you can mix the coolant with it. Where I live we have a well and the water has so many minerals, it can make stalagtites. In fact I have had very small pin hole leaks in the plumbing which self sealed from the water. Especially difficult to keep drip water systems working. So I always use distilled water in the radiator. The minerals in the well water would clog up the radiator! The only time I use the well water is right after I work on the cooling system such as new head gasket or radiator hoses or radiator. I just use it for a test to see if it leaks. If no leaks I drain it and install my coolant mixture .
Norm

Well water has ruined many a Model T block and radiator.

From the Forum 2011.

Coolant - Use of rain water.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1322356482

When I read those old discussions I always wonder, "What ever happened to — ?" Fortunately the folks I miss far outnumber the ones I don't.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:45 am

Anti-freeze does a better job of cooling and preventing corrosion than does water and soluble oil.

Here I disagree respectfully with this statement because the specific heat of antifreeze (pure or mixed with water) is lower than that of pure water. ... Its role in an automobile is to absorb heat from the engine. When the temperature of the coolant increases to its boiling point, the system boils over. Therefore a coolant is effective only at temperature below boiling.

For that reason I used as Allen said : soluble oil (glycerine at drug store) in clean rainwater or regular water. I know some of folks using Distilled water because they do not want to introduce unwanted minerals into the system (That thinking make sense) but using regular water is fine because It have always minerals particule inside of our radiator no matter we do no want them...

I'm just a Biochemist and I made personal trials and found soluble oil (glycerine at drug store) in clean rainwater or regular water gave me more room to avoid overheating. The best way to eliminate overheating is cleaning 1 time a year your radiator with Sodium bicarbonate is popularly called as baking soda. Run you car with watter and baking soda than rinse the radiator well several times... The receipt is 2 teacups of baking or washing soda dissolved in water, run the engine hot for 15-20 minutes, drain and flush well.

Hope these little comments make some light. Scientific knowledge isn't just growing, it's also changing. Historians of science have shown that scientists use many different methods, and these methods have change with time.

I'll stick with commercial antifreeze, used as directed. I've used plain water, water with oil, and water and alcohol. I'm not impressed with the performance of any of these. There are a number of reasons why modern antifreeze/coolants are better than plain water, and information on these reasons is available online. Auto makers, who design, build, test, and warrant motor vehicles for use world-wide install anti-freeze/coolant solution in new vehicles and specifically recommend that if and when replacement is needed, that anti-freeze/coolant meeting the original specification be used, without regard to local climate, be it Saudi Arabia, Death Valley, or the UP of Michigan.

The specific heat of pure water per lb is higher than that of antifreeze; however the specific gravity of antifreeze is higher than that of water. After all is taken into account the specific heat of 50 50 antifreeze is about 96 percent of that of water. The boiling point is much higher with antifreeze mix, which greatly reduces the chance of boiling and hot spots.

Use what you want. I will stay with 50 50 antifreeze.

Art Mirtes

Back when the world had corners I was taught to use a 50/50 mix of Ethylene Glycol antifreeze and clean water in a cast-iron engine. I have done so for years and have never had an overheating problem that could be traced to the coolant. When I moved to SW Florida from Massachusetts, I saw no reason to change anything because I am interested in the rust-inhibitor qualities of the antifreeze. That's what I run in my pickup truck and the T.
The antifreeze doesn't know that it's in a T engine nor that it isn't a pressurized system with no water pump. My T with a recent Bergs radiator cools just fine on the hottest day, and the coolant temperature fully warmed-up in the top tank of the radiator is 170 Degrees. At the bottom I measured it at 116 Deg. I'm happy with that, the T seems to be happy with that, so I'm not going to overthink the subject of coolant. JMHO.

I used Irontite's 3 stage system to flush, clean, and seal the cooling system and then used regular green Prestone 50/50 and it has never overheated.