Stripped threads in block
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Topic author - Posts: 15
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Stripped threads in block
Hi
I have a problem with stripped threads in one of the bolt holes in the block & I was reading in older threads on repairing the problem.
Some mentioned Heli coils & in another discussion the was talk about a "Stevens" tool/kits.
Any advice on whats best to do
Many thanks
Noel
I have a problem with stripped threads in one of the bolt holes in the block & I was reading in older threads on repairing the problem.
Some mentioned Heli coils & in another discussion the was talk about a "Stevens" tool/kits.
Any advice on whats best to do
Many thanks
Noel
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Helicoils, easy to do, inexpensive, readily available. Stevens thread repair requires a larger hole than helicoil, and are not easily obtained. I have a Stevens set but never use it and dont recomend it.
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Topic author - Posts: 15
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Since you're looking at 7/16, this tells me you're looking at a headbolt repair, right? If so, you want 7/16-14 UNC, not UNF. Your link is going to 7/16-20 UNF, which you definitely do NOT want.
Something like this is what you want: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Helicoil-552 ... SwepZXTb9B
The head can be installed with several bolts, and the 29/64 drill used to clearance drill for the helicoil tap, just fits the head bolt clearance hole, to pilot the drill square and in the proper place...remove head to tap.
Otherwise, nearly every other bolt on the engine is a 3/8-24
Something like this is what you want: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Helicoil-552 ... SwepZXTb9B
The head can be installed with several bolts, and the 29/64 drill used to clearance drill for the helicoil tap, just fits the head bolt clearance hole, to pilot the drill square and in the proper place...remove head to tap.
Otherwise, nearly every other bolt on the engine is a 3/8-24
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Re: Stripped threads in block
I used this thread repair on my last problem. I like them better than Helicoils. One caution, one experienced guy on here has said to be careful as some thread holes are close to the water jacket. Ez-Lok from McMaster Car.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Here is a link to the stevens tool repro. Dan
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1425415180
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1425415180
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Re: Stripped threads in block
HeliCoils work fine. Easy to do. I put several in my 21 block some 50 years ago and still holding fine today.
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Topic author - Posts: 15
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Thanks for all the replies, must get working on it now.
Regards
Noel
Regards
Noel
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Re: Stripped threads in block
I just finished putting coil in one of my block head bolt holes today. I put the new Z head on and torqued the bolts . It worked just fine. Will put the motor back in tomorrow.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
I need to repair one head bolt hole in my 1925 block, the one just outboard of the valves for #4 cylinder. I plan to use the “standard wall” 7/16-14 EZ Lok insert which uses a .531 (17/32”) tap drill, which precludes using the head as a drill guide. How do I best assure the hole gets properly located and aligned?
Miles
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Miles,
You might try using the cylinder head as a drill guide. I know the hole in the head is not big enough for the EZ Lock insert, but if you drill as large as the head will allow, it may clean up the hole enough so that redrilling with the larger drill will locate as it should.
You might try using the cylinder head as a drill guide. I know the hole in the head is not big enough for the EZ Lock insert, but if you drill as large as the head will allow, it may clean up the hole enough so that redrilling with the larger drill will locate as it should.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
You will be best assured of an aligned hole by forgetting about an EZ Lok. Either a Heli-coil or Stevens will both use the head as a guide for a 100% foolproof repair.
As for the folks who believe Heli-coil is a substandard repair: read test specs performed by independent laboratories which show that repaired threads in CI are stronger than the parent material, or take someone's word who spent 33 years in Aerospace Manufacturing who will assure you that EVERY tapped hole in spacecraft have a Heli-coil or similar MIL-SPEC STI installed. There is nothing substandard about a Heli-coil repair.
An added benefit, in my opinion, is that Heli-coils remove the least amount of material and can be removed in the event of a somehow-botched installation. An EZ LOK is going to require 400F to remove it due to the adhesive. No thanks.
As for the folks who believe Heli-coil is a substandard repair: read test specs performed by independent laboratories which show that repaired threads in CI are stronger than the parent material, or take someone's word who spent 33 years in Aerospace Manufacturing who will assure you that EVERY tapped hole in spacecraft have a Heli-coil or similar MIL-SPEC STI installed. There is nothing substandard about a Heli-coil repair.
An added benefit, in my opinion, is that Heli-coils remove the least amount of material and can be removed in the event of a somehow-botched installation. An EZ LOK is going to require 400F to remove it due to the adhesive. No thanks.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Re: Stripped threads in block
The use of helicoils in aluminium, such as aircraft, is more to do with the weaker threads in the alloy. To make a stronger thread, the steel helicoil is used. These can stand repeated re-fitting/re-torquing during maintainence procedures. Helicoils are great, but my choice of repair is a keysert or threadsert. These are fitted with standard taps, rather than special size taps used for some helicoil applications. Others have their own ideas.
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Given that a KeySert requires a LOT of material removal, is darn near impossible to remove without training and experience, and the OP apparently has no fixturing to ensure alignment, would you wish to remove a misaligned KeySert? And if you do and can, what is your next alternative?
Keyserts are great on REALLY HEAVY APPLICATIONS but structurally not called for here, and bring more drawbacks and risks than advantages over a Heli-coil, which is stronger than CI, can be fixtured with the head, and if done absolutely wrong, can be removed and there is STILL material left for another style of insert. Not so if you have started with the largest insert possible. Thus my advice for Heli-coils here.
I've used KeySerts and like them...they absolutely have a place in industry and repairs...just not for this installation. When I do a repair such as this, I evaluate benefits and drawbacks for the method of repair. The Helicoil has benefits and no drawbacks making it a superior choice for this particular (but not all) repair(s)
Keyserts are great on REALLY HEAVY APPLICATIONS but structurally not called for here, and bring more drawbacks and risks than advantages over a Heli-coil, which is stronger than CI, can be fixtured with the head, and if done absolutely wrong, can be removed and there is STILL material left for another style of insert. Not so if you have started with the largest insert possible. Thus my advice for Heli-coils here.
I've used KeySerts and like them...they absolutely have a place in industry and repairs...just not for this installation. When I do a repair such as this, I evaluate benefits and drawbacks for the method of repair. The Helicoil has benefits and no drawbacks making it a superior choice for this particular (but not all) repair(s)
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Stripped threads in block
If one hole is stripped make sure when you pull the head to clean out all the head bolt holes really well. There is a reason a bolt hole gets stripped and most of the time it’s to much rust and debris is in the bottom that’s compressed.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Look up Full Torque inserts by Lock-N-Sitch. I have installed a bunch of these. They can even go into water jackets and not leak.
Not cheap but what is?
Not cheap but what is?
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Thank you Jerry. I thought of trying that, but with the top of the hole already around a half inch, and oblong, I wasn’t sure the 0.531 drill would self-center properly.Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:24 pmMiles,
You might try using the cylinder head as a drill guide. I know the hole in the head is not big enough for the EZ Lock insert, but if you drill as large as the head will allow, it may clean up the hole enough so that redrilling with the larger drill will locate as it should.
How about if I take that cracked head I have and have that hole location bored out to 0.531, and use that as a drill guide?
Miles
1924 Touring “Bonnie”
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Re: Stripped threads in block
John, I’ve already been warned by multiple folks to make sure the head bolt holes get cleaned out, and to make sure the bolts don’t bottom out before the head of the bolt contacts the boss on the cylinder head (without a gasket in place). I used CRC contact cleaner to soften the carbon in the bolt holes, chased the threads with both standard and bottoming taps, AND ran a 7/16 bronze bore brush down all the holes. I think they are all about as clean as they’re going to get. Using my borescope, I can see tool marks at the bottom of each of the holes.John kuehn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:59 pmIf one hole is stripped make sure when you pull the head to clean out all the head bolt holes really well. There is a reason a bolt hole gets stripped and most of the time it’s to much rust and debris is in the bottom that’s compressed.
Miles
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Miles,mbowen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:57 pmThank you Jerry. I thought of trying that, but with the top of the hole already around a half inch, and oblong, I wasn’t sure the 0.531 drill would self-center properly.Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:24 pmMiles,
You might try using the cylinder head as a drill guide. I know the hole in the head is not big enough for the EZ Lock insert, but if you drill as large as the head will allow, it may clean up the hole enough so that redrilling with the larger drill will locate as it should.
How about if I take that cracked head I have and have that hole location bored out to 0.531, and use that as a drill guide?
I thought of doing that exact thing, but didn't know if you were ready to remove the cracked head yet. If you have a good drill press, with the table square to the spindle, you can most likely drill out the hole in the head yourself. Go progressively larger rather than going right up to .531. That should help to prevent the hole from wandering.
Scott C.,
I've seen this block in person. Your preference for a Heli-Coil is "spot on", however this hole is more than stripped. Someone has already been in there with a drill and has enlarged the hole such that there's almost zero thread remaining. On top pf that, they were about .050 off center when they did it. It's unlikely a heli-coil drill/tap would clean it up, although personally, I'd try the heli-coil tap drill first to see what it can do. Either way, it needs lots of fixturing to get the hole back on location.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Here is a picture of the Lock n Stitch alignment fixture.
I still have some of the spacers for the head if you need.
Here is picture of the Stevens kit I made a few years ago. I still have some of the spacers for the head if you need.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Lock n stitch makes a blank inserts for filling a hole so you can correct mistakes. Check them out for ideas.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
My thought was to replace the cracked head on he Touring Car with the head from this engine that has already been cleaned and surfaced, and have the head I got from you cleaned and surfaced while doing the valves and block repair on this one.Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:14 ammbowen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:57 pmMiles,Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:24 pm…
How about if I take that cracked head I have and have that hole location bored out to 0.531, and use that as a drill guide?
I thought of doing that exact thing, but didn't know if you were ready to remove the cracked head yet. If you have a good drill press, with the table square to the spindle, you can most likely drill out the hole in the head yourself. Go progressively larger rather than going right up to .531. That should help to prevent the hole from wandering.
As far as modifying the cracked head to use as a fixture, I wouldn’t trust my drill press to do the job, but I do have a neighbor with a Bridgeport.
Helicoil was my first thought too, but a well-respected antique engine guy in my area specifically recommended against it, and offered EZ Lok as an alternative. I will run a 27/64” drill through the hole using an unmodified head as a fixture and see how well it cleans up. The top 0.100 or so of the hole is already coned out to about a half inch diameter, but maybe the rest of it will clean up.
Miles
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Perhaps you mistyped, but the head is drilled 29/64 which is coincidentally the drill for a Helicoil that size (not 27/64). A 27/64 will just wallow around.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Re: Stripped threads in block
You’re right, I mis-remembered; it’s 29/64, NOT 27/64.Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:51 amPerhaps you mistyped, but the head is drilled 29/64 which is coincidentally the drill for a Helicoil that size (not 27/64). A 27/64 will just wallow around.
Miles
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Re: Stripped threads in block
The photo below is AFTER I cleaned up the hole with a 29/64 bit, using the head as a drill guide. There’s very little cleanup, except that what little bit of thread that previously allowed the bolt to snug up is gone. There is still noticeable wobble of the 29/32 bit in the hole with the head off, so I’m not going to chance the Helicoil brand and go with EZ Lok.
Miles
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Helicoil is always my first choice. In this case, clearly not an option.mbowen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:18 pmThe photo below is AFTER I cleaned up the hole with a 29/64 bit, using the head as a drill guide. There’s very little cleanup, except that what little bit of thread that previously allowed the bolt to snug up is gone. There is still noticeable wobble of the 29/32 bit in the hole with the head off, so I’m not going to chance the Helicoil brand and go with EZ Lok.
E5BFCB7A-0CF0-4A73-9CB0-5C84B1E71070.jpeg
I like the idea of sacrificing an old $10 head as a drill guide. Another head slap. One could hang onto it for different blocks down the road.
Better use than for the boat.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Helicoil is always my first choice, too, as evidenced by my earlier posts. I agree that it is not an option for this job.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Yes. for the reasons you mentioned, plus the idea of further down the road, if the helicoil hole were to fail again, one could go to the larger insert. As unlikely as that would be. Keep options open & do less harm. In this particular case, I would consider plugging the hole with a cast iron or steel pipe plug, removing the square drive & thread back to standard. Very effective for a miss located hole also. (should have mentioned that earlier) A fix I have done in the past with on hand parts & taps.Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:23 pmHelicoil is always my first choice, too, as evidenced by my earlier posts. I agree that it is not an option for this job.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Following the “keep options open and do less harm” philosophy (and the advice of a respected T engine builder), I’ve decided to go with EZ LOK. The 7/16-14 EZ LOK insert only requires a 33/64” drill, as opposed to 37/64” for a 3/8-18 pipe plug. Also, the EZ LOK insert is 9/16” long, whereas a 3/8 pipe plug is only about 7/16 long. (BTW, if anyone decides to go with a pipe plug, the internal hex drive style wouldn’t have to be ground down).
Rockler Hardware sells a kit that includes a drill, tap, insertion tool, and 10 inserts. $80 is a a tad expensive, but I’ll make it available to others in similar situation. https://www.rockler.com/e-z-lok-thread- ... -x-9-16-12
Rockler Hardware sells a kit that includes a drill, tap, insertion tool, and 10 inserts. $80 is a a tad expensive, but I’ll make it available to others in similar situation. https://www.rockler.com/e-z-lok-thread- ... -x-9-16-12
Miles
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Re: Stripped threads in block
And.... the EZ LOK insert will be made of FAR better steel than a pipe plug! Good choice! The EZ LOK was designed and made to be a high quality thread insert. A pipe plug was made to be... a pipe plug...mbowen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:30 pmFollowing the “keep options open and do less harm” philosophy (and the advice of a respected T engine builder), I’ve decided to go with EZ LOK. The 7/16-14 EZ LOK insert only requires a 33/64” drill, as opposed to 37/64” for a 3/8-18 pipe plug. Also, the EZ LOK insert is 9/16” long, whereas a 3/8 pipe plug is only about 7/16 long. (BTW, if anyone decides to go with a pipe plug, the internal hex drive style wouldn’t have to be ground down).
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Re: Stripped threads in block
For the purpose of education, allow me to defend my plug decision. Some might be less dismissive.Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:32 pmAnd.... the EZ LOK insert will be made of FAR better steel than a pipe plug! Good choice! The EZ LOK was designed and made to be a high quality thread insert. A pipe plug was made to be... a pipe plug...mbowen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:30 pmFollowing the “keep options open and do less harm” philosophy (and the advice of a respected T engine builder), I’ve decided to go with EZ LOK. The 7/16-14 EZ LOK insert only requires a 33/64” drill, as opposed to 37/64” for a 3/8-18 pipe plug. Also, the EZ LOK insert is 9/16” long, whereas a 3/8 pipe plug is only about 7/16 long. (BTW, if anyone decides to go with a pipe plug, the internal hex drive style wouldn’t have to be ground down).
Any repair requires a careful evaluation of the problem & all feasible solutions. The final choice involves many factors, including ability, experience, time frame, $$, etc, etc.
In my case, the hole was next to a water jacket & more rotted toward that side. A helicoil was going to be to weak & walk over, misaligning the hole location. A keensert would have worked, but required more material removal, more fixturing for centering the hole, maybe via a sacrificial head. My choice was to Plug the hole & make a new one in the correct original location.
How to plug? Carefully considered also. Taper plug to lock it in. It aint backing out. Like a tapered cast iron crack repair pin.
What to use? Pipe plug size works. Have the tap.
What to use as a plug. Many options. Send for a chunk of cast iron, arrives same day & make one? Evaluate on hand or available. Galley plug type too short. steel hex pipe plug? cast iron square drive longer, better. If you are a packrat you have a NOS iron one thats 1 thread longer. Bingo.
The repair was quick(bonus, but rarely a factor), Accomplished the goal,(very well), Got the job done without pulling the motor, has been effective & trouble free for decades. I have no regrets or apologies.
This method remains in my tool box. As before, not a first option, but still an option.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Lock n Stitch plugs
http://castingrepair.locknstitch.com/vi ... basic-kits
They have many other repair options.
Not cheap, but they work.
http://castingrepair.locknstitch.com/vi ... basic-kits
They have many other repair options.
Not cheap, but they work.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
No need to defend your use of a plug. My comments were about EZ LOK's versus pipe plugs, not about your choice or your workmanship, (which I assume is excellent). I assume you made the right choice for your given situation, as evidenced by its successful outcome.speedytinc wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:50 amFor the purpose of education, allow me to defend my plug decision. Some might be less dismissive.Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:32 pmAnd.... the EZ LOK insert will be made of FAR better steel than a pipe plug! Good choice! The EZ LOK was designed and made to be a high quality thread insert. A pipe plug was made to be... a pipe plug...mbowen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:30 pmFollowing the “keep options open and do less harm” philosophy (and the advice of a respected T engine builder), I’ve decided to go with EZ LOK. The 7/16-14 EZ LOK insert only requires a 33/64” drill, as opposed to 37/64” for a 3/8-18 pipe plug. Also, the EZ LOK insert is 9/16” long, whereas a 3/8 pipe plug is only about 7/16 long. (BTW, if anyone decides to go with a pipe plug, the internal hex drive style wouldn’t have to be ground down).
Any repair requires a careful evaluation of the problem & all feasible solutions. The final choice involves many factors, including ability, experience, time frame, $$, etc, etc.
In my case, the hole was next to a water jacket & more rotted toward that side. A helicoil was going to be to weak & walk over, misaligning the hole location. A keensert would have worked, but required more material removal, more fixturing for centering the hole, maybe via a sacrificial head. My choice was to Plug the hole & make a new one in the correct original location.
How to plug? Carefully considered also. Taper plug to lock it in. It aint backing out. Like a tapered cast iron crack repair pin.
What to use? Pipe plug size works. Have the tap.
What to use as a plug. Many options. Send for a chunk of cast iron, arrives same day & make one? Evaluate on hand or available. Galley plug type too short. steel hex pipe plug? cast iron square drive longer, better. If you are a packrat you have a NOS iron one thats 1 thread longer. Bingo.
The repair was quick(bonus, but rarely a factor), Accomplished the goal,(very well), Got the job done without pulling the motor, has been effective & trouble free for decades. I have no regrets or apologies.
This method remains in my tool box. As before, not a first option, but still an option.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Thanks. No offence taken.
There may be folks out there not familiar with options other than a helicoil was my purpose for further explanation.
There may be folks out there not familiar with options other than a helicoil was my purpose for further explanation.
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Re: Stripped threads in block
Happy to read this! Have a good dayspeedytinc wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:00 amThanks. No offence taken.
There may be folks out there not familiar with options other than a helicoil was my purpose for further explanation.