MTFCA Forum

I have a 1913 chassis and drivetrain that was converted into a racing car in the late teens and plan on actually racing it with the Pre-War Group of the VSCCA here in New England. For safety reasons I want to replace the Ford spindles with something stronger. I'm aware of the racing spindles that were available back in the period. I also remember reading about four-cylinder Dodge, and possibly Overland spindles also being used back in the period as they more robust and stronger than the Ford pieces. Does anyone recall what what year Dodge spindles were used for racing in the 1920 to early '30s?

This the cars 2" dropped axle from the period and the 1926-27 spindles were installed on it when the car was rebuilt in 1926.

"Something Stronger" ? It's no secret that Ford's metallurgy was years ahead of most manufacturers at the time. Ford's vanadium alloy steel was well developed and for that reason, I would say to run Ford spindles. If you want to get a little more drop, use a set of 26-26 spindles.

I know of several instances where the aftermarket/accessory offset spindles for a T , would not pass a magnaflux inspection. Great wall hangers, but...

Chevrolet spindles will give you slightly more drop.

Regardless, have whatever spindles you do use magnafluxed before you build a chassis around them.

Spindles are not the weak link. Since you are planning on racing it, the early axles need an under axle wishbone mod for safety.

Dan McEachern wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:27 pm

"Something Stronger" ? It's no secret that Ford's metallurgy was years ahead of most manufacturers at the time. Ford's vanadium alloy steel was well developed and for that reason, I would say to run Ford spindles. If you want to get a little more drop, use a set of 26-26 spindles.

I know of several instances where the aftermarket/accessory offset spindles for a T , would not pass a magnaflux inspection. Great wall hangers, but...

Chevrolet spindles will give you slightly more drop.

Regardless, have whatever spindles you do use magnafluxed before you build a chassis around them.

Hello Dan, thanks for the advice. Yes, Ford's metallurgy was advanced compared to many other manufacturers. However, two parts "outlaw" racers in the '20s and '30s that couldn't afford high-quality specially racing parts replaced regularly, and sometimes weekly on the circuit was the crankshaft, and spindles. And, they also fitted half round spring steel strap "sleds" to the spring perch which would keep the axle or other parts from digging in to the track and flipping the car when a spindle broke.

I seem to remember reading one of Art Chevrolet's "How to Build a Racing Car" articles and he advocated using Dodge spindles, which is why I'm trying to learn what year Dodge pieces will work.

This axle has 1926 to '27 spindles on it now.

We restore, rebuild, and maintain early racing cars here in the The Old Motor workshop and magnaflux crucial parts and at times have them X-rayed.

Humblej wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:18 pm

Spindles are not the weak link. Since you are planning on racing it, the early axles need an under axle wishbone mod for safety.

Humblej, Thanks for bringing that up, yes you are correct about that. This axle is a post-'17 ? late under axle wishbone version.

Hey there David G!
I am with Dan McE on this! Besides, I have known him for fifty years now, and know him as an expert that really knows this stuff!
I have also been involved with model T speedsters and racing cars for those fifty years. I can also tell you that I have known a number of people that had and used era racing spindles on model T racing cars, or tried to. The failure rate on era racing spindles is a lot worse than it is for the hundreds of model T speedsters and racing cars using good old model T spindles.
One of my cars did have Chevrolet spindles, considerably heavier-made than Ford spindles. And I never had any trouble with them in spite of how hard I drove that car! (It is the one and only car I ever "spun a donut" with!) I only used the car for about six years before I had to sell it, so I don't consider it a sufficient success example.
A longtime best friend has a model T racing car, Rajo, high speed gears, been on the Indianapolis Speedway twice, clocked at 95 mph, ran many Monterey Historic Races, and for more than fifty years, driven more than probably any other model T anywhere! (Dan Mc E also knows him very well!) Running on model T spindles.

IF I were to again consider running anything other than Ford spindles? I suspect the Dodge spindles would be a good choice. They knew Ford's metallurgy, and their cars were heavier, so stronger spindles were needed. I don't know Dodge cars well enough to suggest a specific year or series to look for. However, I suspect almost anything from early into the early 1920s would work with simple modification.

See you on the TOM!

I have actually made a couple of sets of spindles for my ModelT front axles because I have added front brakes. I used 4140 Q&T round bar. It machines nice and has good physical properties.
Further here are a couple of pictures of some radius rod “doublers”!

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:09 pm

Hey there David G!
I am with Dan McE on this! Besides, I have known him for fifty years now, and know him as an expert that really knows this stuff!
I have also been involved with model T speedsters and racing cars for those fifty years. I can also tell you that I have known a number of people that had and used era racing spindles on model T racing cars, or tried to. The failure rate on era racing spindles is a lot worse than it is for the hundreds of model T speedsters and racing cars using good old model T spindles.
One of my cars did have Chevrolet spindles, considerably heavier-made than Ford spindles. And I never had any trouble with them in spite of how hard I drove that car! (It is the one and only car I ever "spun a donut" with!) I only used the car for about six years before I had to sell it, so I don't consider it a sufficient success example.
A longtime best friend has a model T racing car, Rajo, high speed gears, been on the Indianapolis Speedway twice, clocked at 95 mph, ran many Monterey Historic Races, and for more than fifty years, driven more than probably any other model T anywhere! (Dan Mc E also knows him very well!) Running on model T spindles.

IF I were to again consider running anything other than Ford spindles? I suspect the Dodge spindles would be a good choice. They knew Ford's metallurgy, and their cars were heavier, so stronger spindles were needed. I don't know Dodge cars well enough to suggest a specific year or series to look for. However, I suspect almost anything from early into the early 1920s would work with simple modification.

See you on the TOM!

Hey Wayne, how have you been? Thank you for all of your thoughts about spindles. And I agree with you that Dan McE "really knows this stuff!" I stopped by has place in the late-1980s and was impressed by his knowledge.

As you know, I have been researching early races and cars, restoring early racing cars, and competing with them for quite some time. I have learned a lot about Ford's vanadium steel and have seen the publicity photos of various T Ford parts twisted and bent like a pretzel without breaking. However, under the extreme strain and pounding of racing T spindles, steering arms, crankshafts (I'm a member of the broken crank club), and axles can and do break after a long service life and work-hardening.

I recently re-read John Gerber's book "Outlaw Sprint Car Racer", a must-read for anyone interested in Ford Speedsters and racing cars. In just about every race, he outlined the causes why drivers crashed and quite often died as a result of it, and the majority of the time, it was because of a broken spindle or steering arm. and many of them were Fords.

My favorite track we race on in the VSCCA is Lime Rock Park and also a tough Hillclimb at Mt Equinox here in VT. Lime Rock travels in a clockwise direction is high-speed, and there is only one left-hand turn, and there the left-hand spindles, wheel bearings, and steering components take a beating, and do break on occasion there even on postwar cars. The Hillclimb has a reputation for being a "car killer" because the top half of the course is riddled with frost heaves and bumps and again is very hard on suspension components.

If I could get NOS Ford spindles, I would use them and change them once a year, but that's not possible to do today. The other issue with 100-year old spindles is you rarely have any idea of what kind of service life they have had.

The Dodge Brothers spindles were built by the company that forged the majority of the early T's parts, and they were experts at it and the art of heat treating; their first car was known for being tough and giving long service. Since the Dodge is a heavier car, the spindles are as well, and that adds in a 30 to 50% safety margin which is the reason I'm planning on using them. I'd rather err on the side of caution than be sorry later, and possibly harm another competitor or their car.

How about these?

Dan Hatch wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:25 am

How about these?

Dan, Thanks, are they Dodge Brothers?

If they are Dodge I' would be interested in them.

Both RAJO & Mospico (sp) produced "self centering" spindles - Mospico (sp) seemed to be more common but both are quite rare.

DB? No way. Rajo. Offset racing spindles.

Those are way cool Dan - only second set I've seen in over 40 years of playing with this stuff !!!

"DB? No way. Rajo. Offset racing spindles."

Thanks Dan, Yes, those are very rare spindles, thanks for posting the photos. I'm sure someone on here would be interested in the set.

Steve: Me too. I have a few sets with no name on them. But this is the only set I have had marked Rajo.
I question why they put it on the inside of spindle, where no one can see it.
The others have same patent info as these.
Dan

I'll share with everyone what I find out about the DB spindles.

Dodge advertised that the axles and spindles were forged using "Chrome Vanadium" which is just a strong if not more so then Henry's "Vanadium." I wonder if he got the idea of using the alloy from the Dodge Brothers?

The photo shows a 1914 to '18 Dodge spindle which appears to be the one that was used on T's back in the period for racing and uses a 5/8" king pin which is larger than the 1/2" T pin, but not that hard to deal with. It also has front to rear steering rod which works out better in use and with racing and other accessory passenger car steering boxes. It is also a dropped spindle like used on the later "26-7 Fords.

The T axle doesn't have a lot of material around the "eyes" that the king pin goes through.

Solving one problem often times creates two more! It's all good.

If you do the math, a 9/16 kingpin is 30% more area so 30% stronger. A 5/8 is 60% more.
The nice thing about the 9/16 is that you can get away from making the spindle bore bigger than the 11/16 it already is. 1/16 wall bushing made from quality bronze and loaded in compression like it is should be fine.
Kingpins are pretty easy to make.
Here are some pictures of some “prototype” spindles I have made. Another consideration is a era Ross Cam and Lever steering box

Damn Les..., Having more fun than me????? I going back out to the playhouse!! LOL

Looking Good!

Hank

Dan McEachern wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:51 pm

Solving one problem often times creates two more! It's all good.

Danny, you are certainly right about that!

You probably don't remember me - I'm from VT and came to your house in 1988 and wanted to buy one of your rear main seal and Model A trans adapters. I brought with me one of the aluminum timing cover and oil pump set-ups that was driven off of the front of the generator it I use to machine them and sold a number of them.

I am curious to know how well those Dodge spindles may fit in a T axle. Without something to gauge the measurements, to my eye in the photos it appears the Dodge "pin body" may be shorter than the T spindle is. The T axle doesn't have much extra room for the spindle arm to swing around, so it may be tricky to get something that lines up just right.
A lot of cars in the 1910s and early 1920s used spindle designs that aren't much different than the model T. I even looked at the 1915 Studebaker's spindles when I had that car wondering if they could work on a T racing car. The Dodge however is a preferred consideration due to their reputation for toughness and quality.

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:31 pm

I am curious to know how well those Dodge spindles may fit in a T axle. Without something to gauge the measurements, to my eye in the photos it appears the Dodge "pin body" may be shorter than the T spindle is. The T axle doesn't have much extra room for the spindle arm to swing around, so it may be tricky to get something that lines up just right.
A lot of cars in the 1910s and early 1920s used spindle designs that aren't much different than the model T. I even looked at the 1915 Studebaker's spindles when I had that car wondering if they could work on a T racing car. The Dodge however is a preferred consideration due to their reputation for toughness and quality.

Wayne, I read an article somewhere in the past, and I believe it was written by Arthur Chevrolet, who recommended this conversion, based on that I'm going to try it if I can find the parts.

Some of you may know number 26 from the scvmtfca endurance run. Long story short over its life it has been driven "hard" and things have broken. Crank, drive shaft, head (multiple times), and many others. When it was passed down there was also a large collection of trouble trophies . . .
The spindles are Chevy and there has never been the hint of a problem.

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 02, 2022 2:03 pm

Some of you may know number 26 from the scvmtfca endurance run. Long story short over its life it has been driven "hard" and things have broken. Crank, drive shaft, head (multiple times), and many others. When it was passed down there was also a large collection of trouble trophies . . .
The spindles are Chevy and there has never been the hint of a problem.

Thanks for the information, might you have any good photos of the spindle conversion you could share?

What I have right now

Well, it's been a couple of weeks, but during that time, a set of 1914 to '18 Dodge Brothers spindles with steering arms, a tie rod, drag link, and a pitman arm have been found, along with all of the necessary pieces and hardware for the installation. And just like Arthur Chevrolet, who sold and built Fronty Ford racing cars and parts and components, said in an article read in the past where he talked about and recommended using Dodge spindles for high-speed racing safety that will all fit without an undue amount of work.

It will all be installed on the racing car's T front axle that was dropped two inches in the '20s. The Dodge spindles will also lower the vehicle by about 1/2" more than the 26' to 27' Ford pieces. And since the spindle stub is shorter, there will be less leverage on the wheel bearings, kingpin, bushings, and axle.

Chevrolet used the 9/16-inch Dodge kingpins by enlarging the holes in the top and bottom of the axle yokes and added a spacer or longer kingpin bushing underneath the shorter vertical section of the spindle. A small amount of metal has to be removed from the inside of the axle yoke next to the side of the inside of spindle and steering arms for clearance. The 2nd arm on the right spindle that attaches to the drag link is high enough to clear the front spring and axle. The back of the drag link will also fit right on the center steering boxes pitman arm when the correct ball is found for it. And finally, the wide flange on the top of the spindle can easily be trimmed off in a lathe.

Ford or aftermarket Ford wire wheel hubs will not fit on these shorter spindles, but fortunately, we have another set of Overland hubs for the Budd wire wheels, and the Dodge inner wheel bearing outer race is the same size as that used on the Overland hub and the outer bearing may fit as well?

The Dodge tie rod at this point appears it will also work with a small amount of modification, and the Ackerman angle is the same as the Ford
spindles.I'll let you all know how it all works out down the road.

Couple of ideas re the spindle bolts. The Dodge setup used a steel thrust washer on top between the spindle and axle. You could go with 9/16 spindle bolt and make brass hat type bushings to fit.
Another idea, aren't Model A spindle bolts 5/8"? If so, maybe you could use the Model A spindle bolt bearings on top, if you wanted to with the 5/8".

Mark Gregush wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 19, 2022 7:41 pm

Couple of ideas re the spindle bolts. The Dodge setup used a steel thrust washer on top between the spindle and axle. You could go with 9/16 spindle bolt and make brass hat type bushings to fit.
Another idea, aren't Model A spindle bolts 5/8"? If so, maybe you could use the Model A spindle bolt bearings on top, if you wanted to with the 5/8".

Mark, Thanks for your thoughts; yes, I initially thought along the same line of machining some 660 bronze-flanged bushings. However, after cleaning up one of the spindle bores and a kingpin a bit and inspecting both, I may try another approach. It has case-hardened steel bushings pressed into the spindle and case-hardened kingpins with the hardened thrust washer at the top you described. All appear to be the original, and a Dodge enthusiast friend tells me they never wear out; after measuring them, amazingly, there is only a couple of thousandths of an inch of clearance between the two.

Still need to spend some more time thinking about which way to go here, but thinking of maybe first using the Sunnen honing machine to true up the original bushings. Then machine some new kingpins to fit the Dodge spindles about .005" oversized in pre-hardened Chromoly. The result will hold up better under racing conditions than the Ford design. Or if I make new bushing go with a 9/16" pin. I have machined quite a few kingpins out of this alloy which has held up well on both pre-WWII road cars for serious long-distance tourists and on the race track.

Dodge later went to a grease fittings on the spindle body. Not drilling the spindle bolt should add extra strength to it.