MTFCA Forum

Hello all, I am looking for some direction on a recent purchase. I have been scratching my head and trying to figure out what has been causing a no spark issue for my '19 T. This on top of a leaky carb. So here is the set up of the vehicle, it's still on a 6 volt system. I have a main battery to run everything off of and there is a separate 6 volt battery just to run the starter. I get no spark out of the output for the lead wire. I have 6 volts to the primary +. The vehicle was my father's back in the day and it has no mags on the flywheel so going to mag and coils isn't really an option. It's running on a texas T distributor that has electronic ignition. I don't normally dabble in 6 volt or this era in general. Oh the coil has been replaced with a proper VW 6 volt coil from my local NAPA. I'll post some pictures but I am kind of at a loss as to where to check next. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Clean the points, set dwell to 50 degrees, replace condenser, check all plug terminals in the cap and coil. Stand that coil straight up to prevent over heating and mount on the firewall. Should go then!

Hank

I would try to arrange the plug wires so as not to touch or intertwine each other too. Without the T mag and a ‘conventional’ system now in place the probable cause of no spark is a bad condenser in my opinion. The other recommendations are really needed also.
I’ve always considered a T with a distributor like most older old car or tractor engines and try to do ignition repairs with that thought in mind. But that’s just me and my opinion of course!

Go to www.texastparts.com

Click on Ignition System
Click on the distributor

Then you will be able to click on the instructions and print them out.

Before you replace anything else...
First verify what you have and should have. The Texas T front plant distributor came with points. Texas T sells an electronic ignition setup fort both 6 and 12 volts (verify you have a 6V to match your coil). I would also agree with mounting the coil upright and not using one if its posts as a connection point for other wiring connections.
These are the instructions for the installing the distributor (better follow them) and includes a wiring diagram . Having things properly grounded is a necessity for the distributor to function so checking your wiring. http://www.texastparts.com/mm5/manuals/T3161.pdf

Bryce, Did this car run before you installed the new 6 volt coil and was the old coil wired like this coil, with several wires attached to the battery side ? I would check this first and relocate all but the one from the on/off switch, the extra wiring may be messing up the solid state pickup signal. Another easy thing to check is to remove the distributor cap and make sure the cap and rotor are in good shape plus make sure that all the cap and coil wires are fully seated. You could bypass everything with temp battery to coil and coil to pickup wires. If all else fails I would go back to the points and condenser set up if you still have them.

Henry K. Lee wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:52 pm

Clean the points, set dwell to 50 degrees, replace condenser, check all plug terminals in the cap and coil. Stand that coil straight up to prevent over heating and mount on the firewall. Should go then!

Hank

Thank you, I will relocate that coil to the firewall.

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:25 pm

Before you replace anything else...
First verify what you have and should have. The Texas T front plant distributor came with points. Texas T sells an electronic ignition setup fort both 6 and 12 volts (verify you have a 6V to match your coil). I would also agree with mounting the coil upright and not using one if its posts as a connection point for other wiring connections.
These are the instructions for the installing the distributor (better follow them) and includes a wiring diagram . Having things properly grounded is a necessity for the distributor to function so checking your wiring. http://www.texastparts.com/mm5/manuals/T3161.pdf

I noticed the distributor isn't grounded at the body itself so I will make sure to run a wire from it to the frame of the vehicle.

kmatt2 wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:45 am

Bryce, Did this car run before you installed the new 6 volt coil and was the old coil wired like this coil, with several wires attached to the battery side ? I would check this first and relocate all but the one from the on/off switch, the extra wiring may be messing up the solid state pickup signal. Another easy thing to check is to remove the distributor cap and make sure the cap and rotor are in good shape plus make sure that all the cap and coil wires are fully seated. You could bypass everything with temp battery to coil and coil to pickup wires. If all else fails I would go back to the points and condenser set up if you still have them.

I just took possession of this vehicle a week ago. I had it delivered and was told that the vehicle was running. My father used to own this, in fact he built it from the ground up. When I saw this had electronic ignition I was surprised because I am almost positive he was running a 6 volt points and condenser set up when he sold it a while back. So to answer the question I have never heard this vehicle run prior to replacing the coil. But yes I wired the new coil exactly how this one was wired as well. There are two wires coming off the solid state sensor a positive and a negative. Should I see about disconnecting the negative from the coil and putting it on the frame as well. I am trying to get a better understanding of this. That is a good idea.... I shall isolate the connection at the coil to just one wire. I'll keep everyone posted on the progress of this.

Getting to the absolute basics here... When you turn the engine over with the distributor cap removed, do you see the distributor rotor turning?

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:38 am

Getting to the absolute basics here... When you turn the engine over with the distributor cap removed, do you see the distributor rotor turning?

I was pretty sure but let me go and check at some point today.

It looks like you may have a Petronix 1847A electronic ignition (no condenser is used with it)
Here is YouTube installation video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UYZBE6QclQ
I went to the Pentronix site and got to the info to Download the installation instructions but when asked to accept to deny their cookies I chose deny and couldn't get the Down Load to work https://pertronixbrands.com/products/pe ... 7239840804

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:49 am

It looks like you may have a Petronix 1874A electronic ignition (no condenser is used with it)
Here is YouTube installation video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UYZBE6QclQ
I went to the Pentronix site and got to the info to Download the installation instructions but when asked to accept to deny their cookies I chose deny and couldn't get the Down Load to work https://pertronixbrands.com/products/pe ... 7239840804

So I just took a look at mine and that ring that goes around the shaft is cracked and split so it can spin along the shaft very free.

In the instructions posted above, under number 14, the black wire of electronic system goes to the negative post on the coil and the red wire goes to the positive post on the coil. If the base that the electronic system mounts to is cracked and moves around as you say, then the timing will also move around because the trigger positions will be changing. Maybe you can buy a new base plate from Pertronix’s .

The part is available from Petronix, may be cheaper from a supplier
Bummer - double checked looks like it may not be the correct one or Jegs has it listed incorrectly. Opps it was me I entered the wrong electronic ignition set above - just correct that. The proper value is 1847A - the part is avilable from Petronix
https://pertronixbrands.com/products/pe ... -009-4-cyl --
--
https://pertronixbrands.com/products/pe ... 7240856612

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:26 pm

The part is available from Petronix, may be cheaper from a supplier
Bummer - double checked looks like it may not be the correct one or Jegs has it listed incorrectly. Opps it was me I entered the wrong electronic ignition set above - just correct that. The proper value is 1847A - the part is avilable from Petronix
https://pertronixbrands.com/products/pe ... -009-4-cyl
1847a.png
--
--
https://pertronixbrands.com/products/pe ... 7240856612
ring.png

I've taken the old sleeve off and it is definitely separating. These links are EXACTLY what I needed. I'm almost positive this is my spark issue. I've just placed an order for a whole new ignition set (as a spare) and placed and order for a new sleeve. I really appreciate you taking the time to look all of this up and steer me in the right direction. I pulled the old sensor off and it is the exact part number.

Here it is.

While you are waiting for parts you may be able to try it by taping around it. I would try scotch tape as it is thinner, you will need to adjust the module to compensate for the tape but if you can get it to stay on the shaft you should be able to try firing it up. It's a magnetic pickup so the tape wouldnt effect it provided it isnt too thick.

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:22 pm

While you are waiting for parts you may be able to try it by taping around it. I would try scotch tape as it is thinner, you will need to adjust the module to compensate for the tape but if you can get it to stay on the shaft you should be able to try firing it up. It's a magnetic pickup so the tape wouldnt effect it provided it isnt too thick.

I''d like to but when I place it over the shaft the piece splits apart pretty wide. I will still give it a try but I am doubtful.

Tape before placing on the shaft

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:31 am

Tape before placing on the shaft

I'm about to head out to the barn. I'll keep you posted.

When Ford put the coil box on top the engine, the tar inside the boxes had to be changed to a Type III that melted at a higher temperature, as it was running out of the coils and making a real mess.

The heat might be sufficient on top of the block to destroy a coil placed so close to it.

I have seen several engines with the coil mounted near the exhaust manifold and asked a few times how long the coil lasts there.

The coil mounting band holes had to be enlarged slightly to fit over the manifold clamp bolts.

Evidently, the fan provides enough cooling air to keep it working forever.

A main benefit is the shorter coil to distributor is shorter and reduces radio frequency interference.

Several years ago, John Cole was making wiring kits and he made a special change that routed the blue and yellow coil wire all the way around to about 8 inches longer than the generator wire and they went together, so the coil could be mounted there. I first saw that on John Bumgarten's car, in NY State about 30 years ago.

Here is a photo of one.
Texas T was also making two wire holders for the coil wires, so they did not get fried on the exhaust manifold.

The orientation for some coils may require an upright position. Most of Today's ignition coils are sealed units and leakage is not an issue. VW engines had the coil mounted on the fan housing. I just visited Elvin Townsand (noted Model T speedster builder) and took a picture of how he had mounted one (he used to manufacture the brackets or the coil and ignition wires). I am seriously considering doing the same.

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:31 am

Tape before placing on the shaft

What happens when/if it slips and fires the engine out of time and breaks something?

Just get the correct part and install it.

An oil filled coil always work better standing straight up. The laminated plates in the center at the bottom heat up quicker and will cause a weaker spark thus in turn causing burned up points. Vibration weakens internal connections. That's why VW's need their points changed out every 5,000 miles. Not my first rodeo!

Hank

Not questioning oil filled coils mounting and old rtechnology
BUT https://123ignitionusa.com/bosch-blue-c ... in-filled/
Bosch Coils are resin filled and can be mounted safely in any direction. The Red and Blue coils are 'resin' filled, not oil or epoxy filled. The resin they use is tested to be much better than even epoxy when it comes to vibration and mountability.

If you did not buy a high dollar coil at $50.00 plus, It is an oil filled coil! Shake it and listen.., slush slush slush!

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 05, 2022 4:54 pm

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:31 am

Tape before placing on the shaft

What happens when/if it slips and fires the engine out of time and breaks something?

Just get the correct part and install it.

All he needs to do is run it a few seconds to ID that that is the part that is the problem. As far as breaking something there is no valve overlap so the worst that happens is the timing is too far advanced or retarded.

To everyone, I forgot to come back here and post what I had ended up finding. So amongst multitude of different issues I did end up getting it running. I had found that the electronic ignition had in fact fried itself. I ended up going down to my local NAPA and picking up some VW points and condenser. Swapped that out and hit the start and she popped off and was running as smooth as could be. Thank you all for your input. I will be looking into relocating the coil so it is standing straight up.

-Bryce

Bryce S. wrote: ↑

Mon May 09, 2022 2:27 pm

To everyone, I forgot to come back here and post what I had ended up finding. So amongst multitude of different issues I did end up getting it running. I had found that the electronic ignition had in fact fried itself. I ended up going down to my local NAPA and picking up some VW points and condenser. Swapped that out and hit the start and she popped off and was running as smooth as could be. Thank you all for your input. I will be looking into relocating the coil so it is standing straight up.

-Bryce

Not just standing up, but in the coolest spot possible on the firewall.