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Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:35 pm
by T321
I have a Model T chassis in my yard. It has wooden spokes, so relatively early. Is there any other hint about what year it might be.
Cheers
Tim
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:38 pm
by T321
Here are some more details.
Cheers
Tim
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:01 pm
by T321
Some of the parts have visible numbers and manufacture logos. I looked parts names up as best I could using
http://www.cimorelli.com/mtdl/1910/1910Partslist.pdf
The crank shaft front bearing cap part number 3032, has what looks like FD T321 Ford (italics). FD could also be ED.Ok
The next item I couldn’t find a name for but I would call it a tie Rod end or something like that. It has a difficult to read manufactures mark followed by 1282 Ford (italics).
Cheers
Tim
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:15 pm
by T321
I have noticed some cracks in various parts. It must have been in a minor accident.
The frame rail crack near the bracket is show from the side in the second photo.
Cheers
Tim
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:20 pm
by Humblej
Between 1918 and 1924. The beehive springs have value and are worth saving.
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:21 pm
by Herb Iffrig
It has the holes for the forged running-board brackets. That is a hint for I think about 1920?, or earlier maybe. I would need to look that up.
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:27 pm
by Mark Nunn
You have fishplates inside the frame rails. See the circled areas showing the plate in one side and rivets on the other. Only the earliest frames had fishplates. Have you measured the frame rail thickness? Is it thinner than .188" (5mm)?
- B72D309A-23D1-4BBC-BC46-A7E094163BC1.jpeg (104.45 KiB) Viewed 3000 times
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:33 pm
by John kuehn
Since it has the pinion bearing spool with the exposed bolts which came out in late 19 and early 20 it would be around a 20 chassis I believe. The individual running board bracket holes (3 for each bracket) makes the chassis no later than 21. Also the engine pan to front axle bracket makes it around a 20. But not much later.
The chassis looks like it hasn’t been changed much from original.
This one escaped from being made into a trailer and was probably a non-starter car. Maybe??,
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:52 pm
by Rich Eagle
My 1920 front axle has the month, day and year in raised numerals in the web. Like this '25. Yours should also.
Rich
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:57 pm
by DanTreace
Been used as a trailer chassis after hard long time, that is reason for frame cracks, although cracks on the pan hangers occurred with hard use or missing wood engine blocks in the frame rail.
The front axle is reversed, and has the remains of a wooden bar for a trailer tongue. The pan is a 3-dip, the engine mount/front spring clip is double clamp piece used until 1921, when the single clamp was used. The rear axle pinion housing is open spool, intro in 1921.
The front frame rails have 4 square holes on each side which date that T chassis to mid 1920 to early 1923.
So best guess is mid '20 to '21 (or later into '22 if an earlier double clamp front spring clip was added to reinforce for towing from the front axle).
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:00 pm
by TXGOAT2
The various cracks and visible wear on the body mounts are the result of a very long service life, or else hard service on bad roads, or both. Is it possible the fishplates in the engine mount area are repairs, rather than original equipment?
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:03 pm
by jiminbartow
Some chassis have the ID (VIN) number stamped on top of the channel iron on the passenger side (or driver’s side) in a straight line that bisects the universal joint and the emergency brake quadrant. On a complete car, the number can be easily seen by removing the floorboards. On my coupe it is on the driver’s side. On my Fordor, it is on the passenger side, and the numbers match the engine numbers of each vehicle. Take some 80 grit sandpaper and see if you can find it, then you can look the number up in the MTFCA encyclopedia the same as you do the engine number. Jim Patrick
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:14 pm
by John kuehn
I missed the front axle trailer arrangement so it was used for a trailer for a while. And the front axle engine to axle bracket could have been changed for more stability but going by the rest of the earlier parts it’s no later than a 21. I can’t see any starter switch holes.
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:39 pm
by TRDxB2
Parts from different periods but if the frame holes may tell the story.
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:29 pm
by kmatt2
Your frame has seen a long life of hard use for several purposes, first under a car and later as a trailer. For trailer use the front axel has been turned around backwards in order to install a draw bar and lock the steering. The rear axel is large brake drum from a later 1926-27 car. The one picture we need but didn’t get was of the rear cross member which would help pin the frame date down. I would say that the fish plates were from a old frame repair and not original. A few things can help pin down the frame’s original use time line:
1) The three triangle shape holes for the early forged running board brackets but no additional holes for the later channel steel brackets would point to pre 1921.
2) The lack of holes for a battery box mount would point to pre 1919.
3) The two holes in top of frame for the early dash brackets mounts and no two holes for the later dash brackets mounts in the side of the frame would point to pre 1917.
4) If we were to see a picture of the rear cross member and it extends pass the frame rails then it would point to mid 1913 to 1916. If the cross member stops at the frame rail, particularly if it still has the early body mount brackets, then it would point to pre mid 1913.
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:53 am
by Allan
With the benefit of other's input and a closer look at the photos, I have to agree with Kevin. The lack of holes on the side of the rails for firewall brackets makes it pre 1917.
Allan from down under.
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:55 am
by rainer
A little bit of paint will not be sufficient.
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:39 am
by T321
Thank you all for these amazing insights. The chassis has been reused as a trailer and lots of parts from different years have been added.
There is 2 square holes on the top of the frame rail, indicating early 1915 to 1916. Here is a better photo. I can’t find my vernier callipers, once I do I’ll post the thickness.
The fishplates are riveted in place, which means they might have been there originally. There are two bolts in the fishplates, one at the front and the second through the engine mount bracket (if that is what it is called). The rest are riveted.
kmatt2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:29 pm
Your frame has seen a long life of hard use for several purposes, first under a car and later as a trailer. For trailer use the front axel has been turned around backwards in order to install a draw bar and lock the steering. The rear axel is large brake drum from a later 1926-27 car. The one picture we need but didn’t get was of the rear cross member which would help pin the frame date down. I would say that the fish plates were from a old frame repair and not original. A few things can help pin down the frame’s original use time line:
1) The three triangle shape holes for the early forged running board brackets but no additional holes for the later channel steel brackets would point to pre 1921.
2) The lack of holes for a battery box mount would point to pre 1919.
3) The two holes in top of frame for the early dash brackets mounts and no two holes for the later dash brackets mounts in the side of the frame would point to pre 1917.
4) If we were to see a picture of the rear cross member and it extends pass the frame rails then it would point to mid 1913 to 1916. If the cross member stops at the frame rail, particularly if it still has the early body mount brackets, then it would point to pre mid 1913.
Thanks for the comments kmatt2. The replacement rear axle from 1926-7, is one of the issues that complicates the issues. Here is a photo of the rear cross member.
Cheers
Tim
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:03 am
by T321
rainer wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:55 am
A little bit of paint will not be sufficient.
If I was to make something with this it would be very Frankenstein-esq. What sort of treatment would be required for the rust removal? I’m thinking acid bath to find serial number or other marks.
Would the nuts and bolt be strong enough or just shear off when I try to remove them.
One of the things that surprised me is the front left and both rear wheels turn smoothly.
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:28 am
by rainer
I am afraid that this is too much rust. Lots of steel is lost.
I am really astonished that TRDxB2 is able to see the years of all this parts. Thumbs up! I only see a lot if rust and cracks.
My guess is:
With brute force, rust remover and so forth one may get this apart, but I doubt that any thread or bolt will survive.
For harvesting spare parts ... as axes are turning, there must be some oil remaining inside. Related parts could have survived (perhaps inside the differential).
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:57 am
by TRDxB2
Wouldn't pay to invest in salvaging the entire frame because of the cracks. Lots of value in parts: front and rear cross members, axles, Hasslers, springs, front spring clip, torque tube. Spindles, spindle arms, tie rod, wishbone, rear radius bars, drive shaft?
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Also I think there are more square holes one may be wobbled out to one side.
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:17 pm
by jiminbartow
Chassis are made of thick steel. There is still a lot of strong, salvageable steel there under that rust. After removing all of the parts, the chassis could be white-blasted down to the bare metal with baking soda, walnut shells, or glass beads to preserve the numbers and, once blasted, all the cracks can be v-d out, welded and dressed smooth. Then prime and paint. No need to junk it. Jim Patrick.
Re: Rusty chassis, any hints on which year?
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:24 pm
by Steve Jelf
Some chassis have the ID (VIN) number stamped on top of the channel iron on the passenger side (or driver’s side)...
Not on this one. Serial numbers were first stamped on frames December 10, 1925 (1926 model year). The Ford parts book shows this front spring clip up to 1921, no later.