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Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:04 am
by CatGuy
Does someone have a parts breakdown diagram of the front wheel bearings and spindle? Last night I took mine apart on the right front because it was loose like it needed adjusted, but everything was very tight and couldn’t be snuggled up anymore. The bearings, roller type, fell apart when I took them out. Trying to figure out what I need to buy.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:39 am
by Alan Long
Without knowing the condition of the axle spindle you need
2 inner bearing Cups and Cones
2 Outer Cups
1 outer cone LH Thread
1 outer cone RH Thread
2 x Grease Seals
2 x Split Pins
1 x HT Bearing grease.
Alan in Western Australia
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:54 am
by CatGuy
Alan Long wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:39 am
Without knowing the condition of the axle spindle you need
2 inner bearing Cups and Cones
2 Outer Cups
1 outer cone LH Thread
1 outer cone RH Thread
2 x Grease Seals
2 x Split Pins
1 x HT Bearing grease.
Alan in Western Australia
The spindle looks fine to me. No odd wear. I checked again and the inner bearing is loose and can be moved in and out behind the dust shield. Is it possible that the previous owner didn’t get that driven in as far as it should go and that’s the issue?
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:15 am
by CatGuy
The dust shield is flush here. The inner bearing moves in and out. That doesn’t seem right. True?
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:18 am
by Alan Long
It is normal for the inner bearing to be loose with the Hub off the spindle. It’s just the grease seal keeping it in. The Cup of course is a tight fit in the Hub
You need to remove all the bearings and Cups, clean up and inspect and go from there
Alan
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:01 am
by perry kete
This drawing is done by Martin Vowell and can be found on the MTFCA home page under the resource section subsection drawings.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:18 am
by CatGuy
Looking at the above drawing I can't see anything amiss. I'll have to do as Alan says and tear into it to see the issue. I've has the ones on my '28 A apart before. These aren't that much different, are they? I can't comprehend how they can be loose, bu the spindle nut so tight.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:25 am
by DanTreace
Model A outer are smooth in the race that fits to the smooth spindle area. Model T are different , the outer spindle is threaded, so the outer bearing is also threaded, left hand on right spindle, right hand thread on left spindle.
That threaded bearing is turned to provide the bearing firmness, so the wheel spins smooth. Then a tab washer fits over, tab keeps washer from turning on the bearing case. Then the spindle nut tightened independent of the bearing, it performs the locking , with a cotter to keep the spindle nut and wheel on.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:35 am
by CatGuy
DanTreace wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:25 am
Model A outer are smooth in the race that fits to the smooth spindle area. Model T are different , the outer spindle is threaded, so the outer bearing is also threaded, left hand on right spindle, right hand thread on left spindle.
That threaded bearing is turned to provide the bearing firmness, so the wheel spins smooth. Then a tab washer fits over, tab keeps washer from turning on the bearing case. Then the spindle nut tightened independent of the bearing, it performs the locking , with a cotter to keep the spindle nut and wheel on.
That all sounds like mine except that my bearing isn't threaded.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:37 am
by speedytinc
Bearing races are press fit. They must not be loose. See if you can turn them with your fingers. Worn hub races will act as you describe. Very common in wire wheel hubs. The inner bearings must fit snugly on the spindles. The outside bearings, as Dan stated, are threaded.
Sounds like you found the problem in the outer bearings.
To harp on a common issue. You should have figured this out looking @ the T1 service manual, A must have for all T owners.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:56 am
by CatGuy
speedytinc wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:37 am
Bearing races are press fit. They must not be loose. See if you can turn them with your fingers. Worn hub races will act as you describe. Very common in wire wheel hubs. The inner bearings must fit snugly on the spindles. The outside bearings, as Dan stated, are threaded.
Sounds like you found the problem in the outer bearings.
To harp on a common issue. You should have figured this out looking @ the T1 service manual, A must have for all T owners.
Yes, I should be buying the manual....I might go broke buying parts first....lol When you say 'press fit' will that require a professional to do that with hydraulics? Also....I see some bearing sets that are sold without the bearings being threaded. Why? I know this is such a simple thing, but I'm making it more complicated.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:22 am
by DanTreace
“Also....I see some bearing sets that are sold without the bearings being threaded. Why? “.
For economy reasons, but cheaper is never better. Use threaded Timken cone bearings, sure they cost, but will last and your front wheel steering and elimination of a ‘death wobble’ is rather important! Some even use Model A front cones without thread, but they can’t be adjusted properly and the loose fit on the T threaded spindle will ruin the threads making that spindle worthless for later use with Ford T parts.
Bearing race tools can be bought , but if you don’t want to invest or don’t have a decent home automotive garage shop and tools, search out a commercial shop.
Had to do that in the past, a rare wire wheel hub collar was too worn to fit the inner race. Had a machine shop machine the worn collar and press in a ring to reduce the I.d to accept the new pressed in race. Proper repair. Some try to peen or prick the collar I.d. to ‘hold’ a race, but better is to use Loktite bearing adhesive if only a few thousands of gap.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:32 am
by CatGuy
It's starting to come together that that is what has happened here. I suppose it's a matter of time before the driver's side goes this way, too? It sure feels solid right now, though.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:57 am
by CatGuy
I'm thinking that I should purchase the kit from Lang's #2833-38S. Yes?
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:34 am
by speedytinc
CatGuy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:57 am
I'm thinking that I should purchase the kit from Lang's #2833-38S. Yes?
Expensive, but that is a correct, complete set.
Check the other side. Possibly the former mechanic used the correct outer bearing.
One should replace a used race when going with a new bearing. The races are relatively cheap. Those outers average $85 each today, IF you can find them.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:48 am
by CatGuy
speedytinc wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:34 am
CatGuy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:57 am
I'm thinking that I should purchase the kit from Lang's #2833-38S. Yes?
Expensive, but that is a correct, complete set.
Check the other side. Possibly the former mechanic used the correct outer bearing.
One should replace a used race when going with a new bearing. The races are relatively cheap. Those outers average $85 each today, IF you can find them.
Now that I look at the pictures again.....I'm almost thinking I have the right set in there, but the outer bearing separated somehow. Is that possible? Mine looks just like those pictures, but came out in pieces. Would that cause it to be loose?
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:55 am
by Steve Jelf
The best prices for bearings are usually at rockauto.com.
A local auto parts store can get the seals for you so you don't have shipping.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:03 am
by RajoRacer
"Now that I look at the pictures again.....I'm almost thinking I have the right set in there, but the outer bearing separated somehow. Is that possible? Mine looks just like those pictures, but came out in pieces. Would that cause it to be loose?"
Could be flat worn out !
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:31 pm
by ChrisB
Steve's numbers are all good, I used them last year, although the 09075 (left) bearing is still out of stock.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/timke ... aring,1672
https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/timke ... aring,1672
Chris
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:12 pm
by JTT3
As Steve said the reason the bearing fell apart is the bearing is worn out. Either the rollers through wear became undersized and the cage would not contain them properly or the cage became worn and wouldn’t keep the rollers in. If either was the case you may have ruined the races. They should be smooth without highs & lows where the bearing travels. I would encourage you to rethink the outer bearing. I thought you said the outer bearing did not have threads.Dan was more than right, They should. The drivers side and passenger side outer bearings are not interchangeable. Again they are threaded with right & left handed threads. Perhaps someone on the forum has a good used set they would sell. You might ask. I’m not sure you should have that much in & out play on the inner bearing, someone may have a set of good used ones also. The best solution as stated previously is to get new races, dust seal covers, bearings, the correct tabbed washers and new pack nuts. Those nuts are not interchangeable either. Good luck and be safe. The front axle is not a place to take a chance on.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:42 pm
by Steve Jelf
I agree. If the bearing came out in pieces, replace it. Use Timkens. For some things the cheaper substitute is OK. For this you want the real deal.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:50 pm
by CatGuy
JTT3 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:12 pm
As Steve said the reason the bearing fell apart is the bearing is worn out. Either the rollers through wear became undersized and the cage would not contain them properly or the cage became worn and wouldn’t keep the rollers in. If either was the case you may have ruined the races. They should be smooth without highs & lows where the bearing travels. I would encourage you to rethink the outer bearing. I thought you said the outer bearing did not have threads.Dan was more than right, They should. The drivers side and passenger side outer bearings are not interchangeable. Again they are threaded with right & left handed threads. Perhaps someone on the forum has a good used set they would sell. You might ask. I’m not sure you should have that much in & out play on the inner bearing, someone may have a set of good used ones also. The best solution as stated previously is to get new races, dust seal covers, bearings, the correct tabbed washers and new pack nuts. Those nuts are not interchangeable either. Good luck and be safe. The front axle is not a place to take a chance on.
As I'm just learning this....I realize that it most likely is a threaded bearing and that it just wore down enough to come apart. Possible? Now, if that is what is causing the slop or looseness......I'll know in a few days as I bought the complete kit to replace the bearings and the races. The inside of the hub looks pretty good with fairly fresh grease.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:32 pm
by CatGuy
Oh.....I also ordered the 'T1' book today. For years , since I was little, I have always scanned through the pages of the 'The Model T Ford' book by Page and it's somewhat helpful, but this will be better I'm sure.
Re: Front Wheel Bearings
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:00 pm
by DHort
Alan Long
Please add to your list
2 front spindle washers.