MTFCA Forum

Came to Calif. to finish paint work on two cars. One is very close to done and the other is in the tear down stage from fit up. When I built the touring I wanted to paint it red, so I bought the paint, thinner and hardner at that time. 20yrs ago. Paint is all still good, but I decided I wanted a Green car. So I priced materials and decided maybe Green wasn’t such a good choice. As the Red is paid for and the Green is not, Red it is. I’ll send a few pics as progress moves along.

Tom,
20 years is a really long time for a paint with a hardener to last.
Please don't attempt to paint the car until you have sprayed a separate panel from start to finish.
All the paints around 20 years ago only had a shelf life of 2/3 years max. as they could possibly have already been on the shelf before that.
I would contact the paint manufacturer before you start to check what they say. An internet search quotes 2 years only for polyurethane 2 part paints

Depends what kind of paint you are using. Lacquer, enamel, or urethane?

Nice work, Tom. "09 or '10?

I would not risk using paint that old on a job like that.

I would join those who are concerned about the old paint. I would proceed with extreme caution. Paint is the least expensive part of a paint job.

I'm sure you will figure out what is best. I used Tractor paint when I did mine. It was $20 a gallon and is $46.08 now. I'm happy with it for what my car is. I'm sure yours deserves a better paint.
Best wishes for it.
Rich

Another plus for that tractor paint, it can be 20 years old in the can and still usable !

As for catalyzed paints, consult the manufacturer. If components have not changed in consistency (they'll sometimes look like snot) they may be OK to use. The new generation catalyzed finishes are quite expensive I'm told.

I have had some setting that long also and have used it recently, the only thing was the hardener i did not trust.

O.K., This car I painted 4 yrs ago with paint that we used to paint the bottom of Model A running boards. Then EPA made us stop in 1987 and I was left with 20 gallons of Nason commercial grade black acrylic enamel. Pretty much bottom of the quality ladder. I have two black cars now and have painted a handful of others using up this paint to the point that I have 3 gallons now. That paint is 35 yrs. old now. I used generic thinner and a wet look additive. For paint that is over 30, I’m pretty damn happy with it.

Back to the touring. Body up on roller and we move towards prep work. First I treat all the raw wood with a lacquer sanding sealer. It’s old too. The kind they used to use on school floors. Unobtanium. I brush the parts that are exposed to exterior paint work. The inside wood and bottom side wood I’ll paint by hand after all the spray work is done on the exterior. If you don’t seal the wood where you spray, the wood will suck and suck the paint in. Not good to put layer upon layer of paint on wood. And don’t forget to do the seat overhangs.

I would mix a small batch and paint something (unimportant something) with it to see if it dries and sprays well. If it passes that test, then ON WITH THE PAINTING!

Today was a job that I hate. Masking. Just tedious, detailed, time consuming. A general pain in the butt. But necessary. Because the body and the hood are aluminum, you must use a etching primer to get paint to stick. And remember this car has been sitting in bare metal for 20 yrs. So first is washed it down with a lacquer thinner, then I wash it down with a degreaser. And then tack it down to pick up little crud you can’t see before you prime it. I looked at the date on the two part primer and it said 2011. These are unopened cans, so even though their old, the paint looks good when opened. If they had been opened before, they could easily be cottage cheese or worse by now. So tomorrow first thing I need to shoot everything with a filler primer or I won’t get a good bond between the two primers. Then I go to work on the chassis.

Thanks for sharing this with us, love seeing the progress of one of my favorite year model T’s

Good choice of staying with red. Here's a couple of pictures of a nice red 1910 for you. The body on this car is an identical aluminium touring body probably built by the same Rootlieb craftsman that built yours. This car got a new coat of paint for the Cen"T"enary Tour in 2008 in Echuca, Victoria Australia. 2 Pak red enamel. One of my favourite T pictures ever, with me at the wheel, my Dad beside me and my 2 sons in the back seat.

Tom is that the same T you brought to Chickasha bacteria a decade or so? Sure looks good.

Yes John I’m sure it’s the same one, and it was probably TWO decades ago. So today I got all the aluminum work and wood that is painted into fill primer. So it will sit in the warm California sun and cure for a few days. Also got the frame with fenders up on horses so I can do a little more fit work before the sheet metal comes off. Tomorrow I’ll mask off the tires and seal up the wood so they can head to primer.

And when there’s nothing to do, I keep sanding on the wood work getting some of it ready for paint and some ready for stain.

Tom, I am curious as to how you masked off the already tacked down upholstery. Did you remove the tacks and peel the upholstery back or are you priming/painting up to the installed upholstery. I'm asking because I would like to redo the back panel on my 11 Touring that has the interior finished. My car was painted when I got it but it looks like someone pushed on the back panel and created waves. Art

I wasn’t happy with the splash apron fit,so I made some to fit the car. Put me behind a day, but in the end I think I will be happier. Then I decided to change to a different radiator, which fit fine, but I wasn’t happy with the fit of the headlight forks, so I heated and bent them until I got the headlights where I was happy with them.. Then I took all the sheet metal next door for a little acid bath (which I will show next week), and then the frame finally made it to the paint booth for some filler primer.

In answer to Arts question, no I did not remove the hide em strip. Usually I paint before upholstery. But in the situation where it’s already got upholstery, I mask it similar to how I mask of tires to paint wheels. I position the tap so it over laps what you are going to paint just enough so you can take a screw driver, butter knife etc. and push the tape into the gap.Experiment till you find what works for you. Sometimes the paint will fill the gap, so after it sets, but before it’s hard I push the upholstery back and with an exact knife, I cut the paint so when you pull the tape, you don’t wind up pulling the paint with it. Got all the tires masked off, up on the horses and all the spokes sealed. Hopefully tomorrow I can get them into fill primer.

Tom,

Your pics showing ready-to-paint wheels look great. I do have one question, however: Do you seal the spokes under the hubs or will the wood remain bare in those areas ?

Below is (I hope) an attached picture of one of my rear wheels with the hub removed. To the best of my knowledge, no work has been done on these wheels since they left the factory in 1912. My father bought the car in 1961, so I know that no wheel restoration has been done since that time. The car was repainted in 1960, but as far as I know that's all the "freshening up" that has been done over the years.

As you can see, the ends of the spokes have no black paint, but the wood has some sort of a slick, almost waxy appearance where covered by the hub. The finish looks sort of like linseed oil to me. Then the black paint was applied after the hub was installed.

Dick

Dick, I don’t seal under the hubs. It certainly wouldn’t hurt if you did. My thinking is when these cars were new, they were a tool that was going to be used hard and abused to no end in all kinds of weather and left with no concern for longevity. Today we take just the opposite approach. We wouldn’t dream of letting our little princess be abused in any way shape or fashion. I’ve never had a new wheels finish go south, for not treating under the hub. Just my 2 cents. Today I got the wheels into primer. Along with a string of other little parts. But mostly spent hours sanding the wood work on the body, eliminating the grain using 80 grit to the point that the ends of my finger tips are raw and a couple bled. On a different note, I finally got a new air actuator for the clutch on our 300 ton press. If we can get it to operate correctly tomorrow then I have to make running boards. That will put the kabosh on the touring for a bit. We will see.

We did get the press running, so running boards are my propriety, but I was able to work in some touring time. As you can see the sheet metal developed some surface rust thru the years of sitting unprotected. I use a gal. of Metal Prep to treat four fenders, two aprons and two boards. Using a 3” paint brush I coat the bad side first and turn it over and do the good (cleaner) side. Using a scotch brute pad and gloves I dip the pad in to prep and then scrub the entire surface. Clean side goes pretty quick. Flipping it over I attack the rustier side. Takes more work but you can see the rust being removed. When I’m happy with the removal, I turn on the hose and using water I scrub down the part again removing any residue left behind. Be sure to wash out all the seams, folds and joints as water nutrealizes the acid, so be sure all prep is washed clean. Then with compressed air I blow the water out of the seams folds ect. while using a rag to wipe the part dry.

Then they go in the sun until the moisture in evaporated from the seams. Now they go into the booth for some etching primer. These are turning into really long days.

Tom, what did you seal the wood on the wheels with ? The same lacquer you used on the body ? Darryl

All my painting is done in the open either in my workshop or on the apron under the verandah. This means I use acrylic lacquer, for it's forgiving nature if I need to re-do any insect inclusions/dust/runs etc. Besides which, lacquer does not give the un-natural plastic gloss finish of two pack stuff.
Which leads to painting wood. Acrylic primers and paints do not respond well to the expansion/contraction of wood. On bare timber I seal with two or three coats of Penetrol. This same product also aids adhesion of top coats. Those topcoats are oil based enamels, which can even be thinned with Penetrol to aid and even out coverage.

Others do it differently.
Allan from down under.

Darryl, yes i used the same lacquer as on the body, only because i like it and it dries fast. However, I have used McClosky (i think that's the name) non sanding sealer before and had good results. Probably whatever you have locally will work fine. As long as it seals.

Allan, I agree that your lacquer finish is true to the original finish more than the acrylic enamel that I use. They were lacquer painted originally, so it stands to reason. They probably looked enamel like for the first week and then they started to develop the sheen that lacquer has if you don't polish it. A lot of the paint I have used is no longer available in California, so you work with what you have. You cannot buy Lacquer paint or thinner here. People will say you can get it at Home Depot, but don't try painting with it. Its only for cleaning purposes. I started painting when i was 10. My father had a body shop. I'm now 73. Shot a lot of different types of paint. I prefer the acrylic enamels because of ease of use. I'm not concerned with correctness, as this is not a correct car. If I was in your situation I would do exactly as you are. Because it works best for the reasons you stated. I have never used Penetrol, so I am not familiar with it.I decided to do this little story just to share how I have learned to do finish work for two different reasons. First, that it may help someone who is unsure of the process. And again, this is how I do it. Doesn't mean you have to follow this method as I'm sure Ford Motor Co. does things much differently that Allan and myself. Second, this is probably the last car I will paint as I am giving up my shop with a booth in it.

The big press is calling my name, so time to go to work.

Wonderful photographs. It takes me back to fun I have had.
Thanks so much.
Rich

Tom, I understand the restrictions you face in California. Were not some of those behind Rootlieb's decision to cease painting the panels they produce?
We are fortunate to still be able to use lacquer here in South Australia. I am 76 now, and the last car I am building has a wooden commercial body, so it will get oil based enamel.
I mentioned the way I do it as an introduction to the different preparation and finishes for timber which the poster was asking about re painting wood.

I have a lasting memory of my visit to your shop in Turlock in 1989. It centres around the splash panels, for A models I believe. They were made made deliberately with more curvature than needed, Then the worker laid them on the floor, place a wooed plank on them, and literally walked the plank, relaxing the curvature. Fascinating stuff!

Allan from down under.

Thank you for taking the time to document your progress.
I have a wood frame that I want to treat/paint before moving it to an out building. This discussion helps me make a plan.

Allan, we still make those aprons the same way to achieve the correct curve.

Kevin, if it’s a body skeleton just be sure it is supported level. Better yet use the chassis frame under it. The wood will move on it’s own. Ask me how I know. Had to disassemble skeleton and make corrections to get it to sit right.

Here’s what been getting in my way of fun with the touring. These are 26-27 boards with one more operation to go. And these are complete with double script and center diamond row.

A little filler on the wood work. This bondo that comes in small squeeze pack(looks like kids juice packs) works really well, but it sets really fast, so you have to learn to use just a little hardner or you don’t even make it to the body. Needs a little more in a couple places and when it’s sanded out I will reseal the raw wood spots and prime it again. Then I will rehang the doors to make sure they still fit and don’t drag.

Boy my fingers are toast. I hate wearing gloves cause I just can’t feel things.

Resealed and reprimed. Will start to wet sand in a few days and finally start heading towards paint.


All the lower sheet metal in etch primer. It’s all new so no need for fill primer on these.

Lots of little pieces waiting their turn.

Thanks for posting photos of your progress with painting your T

In my quest to use what’s in the cupboard I found two stains, on the left-Red Mahogany. Next to it-Cherry. I didn’t care for either so I emptied my McDonald cup and put some Cherry in and added Mahogany (3rd going right). Still no so I added more Mahogany. Far right- that will work.


So I got the dash and coil box stained.
And sealed.
And the rear doors rehung to check fit-good. And the two front wheels wet sanded.

I only have 9 qts. of paint. If it had a black chassis I would say no problem. But a car that is red on all sides, every piece, top and bottom and inside and out, I have my doubts. Even though the paint mixes at a 8 to 6 to 10% ratio I think it will be thin or flat run out. This is paint that is no longer produced so I can’t order it. To start over with a new system and learn how to spray it is not something I’m willing to do time or money wise. So in the back of the cupboard I found 2 gals. of a darker red. So I painted the wheels with the darker red thinking I would use this as a base and go over them in a week with the lighter red. This shows the difference in the two reds. The bright is a little to bright and the dark is a little to dark for me. So today I decided to mix them together starting with a small sample and while the color is still a little darker than what I would say is on your usual 1909 Ford this car is for me to haul my granddaughters around to get ice cream and so forth. And I like the color in the sun. So that saved me $2500. and I also got the dash and coil box into first round of clear.

Tom, I prefer the darker color you have mixed up.
My Dad matched the original paint on his '09 & it's a darker red than what we see on most '09 restorations.

I agree! I prefer the shade darker myself.
I would not want it any much darker however.

It is really tough to tell what original colors were like. Some colors fade to lighter shades? Some paints (especially a lot of era shellac based paints) can age darker regardless of exposure to the sun.

Frame is hanging in the booth but just to windy to paint. So spent the day prepping small pieces and front end parts for paint. Engine is a ‘27 that was built 10 yrs. ago and put together so pieces and screws didn’t get lost. I need to partially disassemble it for cosmetics and prep to drop it in the frame. Also discovered one rear end housing needed machine work so disassembled it and off to the doctor it went.

I like both colors, but by mixing them, you get the best of both worlds!

: ^ )

Keith, I agree with you 100%. It was a roll of the dice that payed off. I’m happy with it. So far anyway. So how does an old guy get that frame hanging from the ceiling by himself without screwing it up. Same way I take it down With some help from my roll around work table I never did this till I got older and smarter. And it makes working on the frame easier on your back.

So in goes more parts to become red. And more

And more.

When you build a car for display you skip a lot of things or figure you will get to them later. Such is the case of the rear axle here. You work with what you have initially enough to get by. Poor housings to start with didn’t help. So I bought a better pair some time a go. Thought I would use the guts out of the first one but when I opened it up, broken ring gear and babbit thrust washers. So I needed to start over. Went thru 7 axles on the lathe before I had two good ones. If you go thru all this and the wheels don’t run true- what’s the point. So quick trip to Dave’s Sandblasting along with a few other pieces.

So with all good pieces I fit the pumpkin and axles into the left half and dropped the right over to check the thrust washer spacing. Pulled it apart, resized the thrust washers till I was happy and then pulled it all apart again. You will see that someone at some time in the past decided it would be a good idea to braze the inside to stop the leaks. I don’t know if it worked, but I have had good luck using gas tank sealer for this job. So here they are. I paint them with a radiator brush. Cheap-Amazon 8oz, enough to do 5 rear ends.

As long as I was at it I did the 11-12 housings. As long as the front end was painted I thought I would go ahead and assemble it. It is a great feeling when at last, after weeks and weeks of effort, something is starting to come together that shows effort. It’s exciting. I had replaced the wishbone when I took the front end apart because it was in poor shape and I had found a really nice one. So I reamed out the spring shackle holes because they fill up with paint and everything fit perfect. Spindles went right on. Spring mounted super. Tie rod would not mount. Spindle arms to low. I never thought to check the fit by changing the wishbone. But in looking at the old one it has a sway bend downward and the front end was assembled from parts here and there. So of came the spindles and the arms got heated and rebent upward to gain clearance. Of course it ruined the paint and I had to start that process over. Needless to say my excitement quickly vanished.

Body is ready for final wet sand and gets painted black. Waiting for the wind to die down and temperature to go up just a little.

Drain plug in rear axle galled. Whited scale on front corner of radiator. Sent both out to be fixed. Sanding sanding sanding painting painting painting. I’m sick of it. Still haven’t got to the body yet. Sanded wheels with 800 and shot fronts yesterday, shoot rears tomorrow. With the constant 20-35 mph. winds since I have been here it mean I can only paint between 3-6 a.m. when they die down. Has made progress hard. And wet sanding in that wind sucks. But it’s off the tables and on the ground, so I guess we are making progress.

Progress is good!

Thanks Wayne, I needed that. Don't mean to complain just realize that I am behind where I hoped I would be. Have to go back to Ohio after this week, just wish I was further along. If I can get black color on everything before I leave, I will be happy.

Tom,

I think it looks great! and you can't even see the brush strokes

With the rest of this Model T either correct 1909-10 parts of correct reproductions, why use a starter engine? The body is new as are the brass items, but done up right. You have built up a "driver" by using a later engine. You can drive (and Start) a non starter engine. Even a "look-a -like" open valve would go nicely with this great T. What it is that when you show the car, people will ask to see the engine. A open value engine would look great in this beautiful T.

Perry, the wonderful thing about tech is that what you see isn’t always so. I love photoshop because it makes me a much better painter than I am. It’s amazing how it can erase those brush strokes even when I drop the brush IN the paint!
And Daryl, I saw a 09 engine for 20k. That pretty much answers the question for me. This is one of those doing it for me cars. I wanted it mostly correct and at the time I started this project (1986) the parts were more affordable than today. I always knew I would use a later engine for reliability and if it blows up- next! If I started this project today, I wouldn’t. I would just buy one. The rear wheels got painted and the front end is complete and now on to other pieces while I wait for the rear axle to come back from fixing the drain hole.

Don't forget to photoshop those unpainted castle nuts!
Looking good!

What about an old modified later block turned open valve? I don't know if something might have been seriously wrong with it or not? I don't remember who had it listed for sale recently, but I thought the price was very fair for what it was? It was discussed both in General Discussion and For Sale threads. I know it didn't sell in a week or two, but that was a couple weeks ago?

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 2:46 am

Don't forget to photoshop those unpainted castle nuts!
Looking good!

What about an old modified later block turned open valve? I don't know if something might have been seriously wrong with it or not? I don't remember who had it listed for sale recently, but I thought the price was very fair for what it was? It was discussed both in General Discussion and For Sale threads. I know it didn't sell in a week or two, but that was a couple weeks ago?

Here it is

https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php? ... ve#p220334

Thank you TPTD!
I haven't heard if it has sold or not? But I would be surprised if it hasn't? The last good open valve modified block I saw for sale was about three times that price! Another at twice this one a couple years ago sold quickly. It is a lot of work to do one reasonably well. If I had the money to spare, I would have considered this one myself. But I already have too many projects and the likelihood of me needing an open valve block is very slim.

I’m thinking Darth Vader

Tom,

You must be feeling pretty good right now. I hate taping and papering, but I love to peel it off after the paint is done and the guns cleaned up. (And have verifed that there have been no masking leaks.)

Dick

That is beautiful ...I'm glad you followed my step-by-step instructions

SWEET!


Okay, SWEET!-6-7-8-9

Painted tops of fenders. Steering column, rim, engine pieces and so forth. Tomorrow I’ll paint the hood and sills. And I believe with the exception of the spare carrier, that is the end of black paint work.

Hood and sills are black. So everything that is black, is black. Now it will have time to cure, as I must turn my sights towards returning to Ohio. We started this little adventure on Friday April 15th. It is now Friday May 20th. I’m happy with the progress made in a month and 5 days. I am hoping to return in July to pickup where I left off and get Model A running boards made. So, I’ll see you when the party starts next time.

I am so enjoying watching all of this without having to do any of the work.
Thanks so much.
Rich