MTFCA Forum

Any ideas? My hood on my '26 sits nicely on the cowl and passenger side at the radiator shell. The drivers side at the radiator shell has a big gap.
Any ideas on how to fix or improve and lessen gap?
Can't shift it at all due to hoses, support rod, and the 2 bolts at the frame still attached.
??

A really common problem Is a sagged frame which can significantly affect hood fit

The radiator, shell and apron have large holes for adjusting at the connection point at the base. Try loosening the radiator on the driver’s side and move it back enough to close the gap, then re-tighten. You might need to adjust the radiator support rod connecting the firewall to the radiator as you do this. Jim Patrick

No room available to loosen pass side and move It towards the firewall.
If I pull it back, then the pass side will not accept the hood. Pass side is perfect.
** Key issue--> I can leave the rear hood hinge pin in, and move the front pin at the radiator towards the passenger side. [Latches not secured]. By moving it about 1/4 inch the hood drops in nicely.
So it looks like if i shim up the drivers side moving the cradle the front hinge pin rests in, I might be able to correct the problem. Will try tomorrow....

Please re-read. I said loosen the driver’s side and move it back. You may have to loosen both sides and twist the driver’s side back and the passenger side forward until the gap is even and the hood is as close as possible without making contact with the firewall or cowl. Jim Patrick

I stand corrected.... thanks.
Will try as you advise in a.m.
Thanks for the help Jim. Much
appreciated.

Have you tried adjusted the spring loaded studs at the base of the radiator? If you tighten on one side or loosen on the other side, you will move the center of the radiator toward the side you tighten and away from the side you loosen. after you get it centered with the cowl, you can adjust the radiator support rod or lengthen or loosen to get the top of the radiator in line. You you should loosen the hoses as you do it because they might also need to be moved in or out as well. Other possible but much harder to correct would be a bent frame. Usually the frame sags on the passenger side due to torque of the engine and also torque in same direction when braking with transmission brake. If this is minor, you can use part of an old tire casing to shim it up on whichever side the frame sags,or a thicker wood block. In more severe cases you would need to straighten the frame. If you do shim it you might also have to shim the body blocks along the sides in order to get the doors to fit right. Takes some experimenting but can be done. Other less likely cause would crooked radiator. You would need a radiator shop to fix that or replace the radiator.
Norm

Unless holes have been elongated, there is no wriggle room at the frame. The frame hole is 3/8", the hole in the thimble is 3/8", the hole in the cap on top is 3/8" and the stud is 3/8". The top hat is a neat fit in the foot on the shell, so there is nowhere for things to move, other than any slack in the lot. Things will sit where they want to.
You may be able to grab a bit of twist in the top of the shell by working with the mounting screw at the side top. This may help to negate the the twist you noticed when fitting the shell.
Be aware that getting the top nicely aligned does not guarantee the two side panels will fit. That needs to be taken into account while you are working. Adjusting the height of the radiator by loading one side more than the other will affect the alignment of the edges of the side panels.
Most times there is a need to compromise somewhere, so achieving s perfect fit is often not going to happen.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

Thanks Norm.
Let's hope it's not the radiator as it's a brand new Brassworks.
I'll try again this a.m. and see...
I have a very good friend that wants to help me, but is not available for another week. I'm going to work the problem thru as far as I can alone, and with mtfca help...
Thanks again.

Would lack of side screws on the shell at the curve be a contributor? I can't remember if I installed them. The set, one on each side under the chafe strip. I can't recall if I put them in or not. Gotta check.

There may be a much BIGGER problem: The frame may Not be Square. If the vehicle was in a collision, one frame rail may be pushed back making the frame out of square.

You MAY be able to move the radiator to compensate but, you may NOT. I have a frame that appears to have holes in the wrong location. I can see the difference without even using a tape measure. Since the truck is complete, I am unable to check for square and I believe the problem to be in manufacturing and not square. I'm still working on this one.

If the frame is bent very much, you will notice that the steering will pull to one side. Even if the castor and camber and toe in are correct, the ball joint will be to one side and cause the steering to pull. A small pull to the right is normal on high crown roads but should pull straight on level surface. Anyway, if the radiator shell to hood gap is only on one side and fits at the bottom, you might need to file the hole or holes in the shell or radiator with a round file just enough to get it to move back a bit.
Norm

Professor Fate wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:33 am

Would lack of side screws on the shell at the curve be a contributor? I can't remember if I installed them. The set, one on each side under the chafe strip. I can't recall if I put them in or not. Gotta check.

Yes. That could definitely be your trouble. The screw holes in the ears of the radiator side pieces are slotted, (if I recall correctly), for the purpose of fine tuning the shell alignment.

I have wrestled the hood gap issue now for 5 hrs today. I've been able to remedy it only slightly.

Last thing to look @ would be the squareness of the radiator. Check it with a straight edge. It may have a slight twist. I have made that corrective adjustment. You will have to remove the shell, support rod & upper hose to make the tweek.

Brand new brassworks radiator.

Pardon me. Brassworks couldnt have sent you a tweeked radiator. Trust but verify.
Come to think of it, that last radiator I mentioned was a new brassworks high.
Did the original radiator fit poorly also?

Original radiator is location unknown. I got a blown out leaker radiator with the car. Beyond repair. So I opted for a BW.
I know the frame is straight.
I just went at it again and cut the gap in half. From 1/4 inch plus down to an eighth or less. I'll have to live with it for now. Moving on...
Windshield and brakelight install. Then it's time to put some miles on it.

Dont get me wrong, A new radiator is the way to go almost universally with the purchase of a new T. B/W is my go to.
If you "gottsta know" about the square of the radiator, you could use a flat plate just larger than the radiator.(like plywood). See if the radiator contacts all 4 corners of the plate. If not, its got a twist. Verified.

I have the plywood. You've peaked my curiosity! Thanks!

With a brand new radiator, you should not try to bend it. Contact the company and see if they will replace it with a good one. I have used two brassworks high radiators and both worked just fine and fit well.
Norm

I'm not bending anything. It's fine to run.

Yes, these 26/27 Bonnets usually fit terribly and doubt if they were a great fit from new. The secret is to check everything from
a bowed or out of square chassis and the location of the cowl. Bit late if the cars already assembled. When you look at all the areas you can see by fixing one, another goes out of sink! Reproduction Bonnets probably add to the drama. I’ve only ever seen one 26/27 Bonnet fit beautifully and according to its owner it took a great deal of effort at the restoration stage knowing full well that that fit was critical and had to be addressed early in the piece.
Alan in Western Australia

Trying to adjust the hood gap is like trying to solve s Rubiks Cube while riding a unicycle on a frozen lake...
. You can work it to be so close and then one wrong move later; be so far out it ain't funny.... then reset. Start over. Repeat....

Dan, the lack of side screws will allow the shell to sit where it is comfortable. Given the damage to a side panel shown in your previous post, there may be some tension/misalignment in the shell. Fit the screws and check it out. You may be able to finesse the fit a little by using the screws to hold the shell in a slightly different position from front to back.

Allan from down under.

One way to temporarily hide the problem would be to put some black plastic electrical tape on the hood welt on that side. That shiny black tape would make the defect less noticeable. Then If you can find someone with the same year car who would be kind enough to loan you his hood, try it on your car and see if it fits better. Then you will know for sure whether the problem is in the hood itself and you can look for a better one at swap meets. Also the same with the radiator shell if you can find a good one.
Norm

I looked for where the side screws go and don't see where they fasten thru to the BW radiator.
U guys have a picture of where they go?
And what damage to put black tape on do you refer to?

Professor Fate wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:03 am

I looked for where the side screws go and don't see where they fasten thru to the BW radiator.
U guys have a picture of where they go?
And what damage to put black tape on do you refer to?

Not sure what '26 High Brass Works radiator you purchased but their photo's show a bracket on the lower portion. Berg has on the upper edge. Looks like an original had upper & lower on a high

I have the same problem with one side fitting flush and a big gap on the other. I've suspected but now I'm sure my hood is a reproduction. When you completely open the sides individually and compare, the sides do not match. Solution? buy a new "well made" hood.

Dan - the BW radiator for my ‘26 came with the bottom stand-offs already soldered onto the radiator and the top ones - where the screw attaches - loose with pop rivets in the bag with the petcock.

The hood lace is the fiber material which loops through the radiator shell on which the hood rests. It is kind of a gray color. It shows through the gap which is quite obvious in your picture. Some black plastic electrical tape over that would blend in with the black paint and make it less visible. Most of the time you open the passenger side of the hood to turn on or off the gas and add oil or look at the carburetor. You only need to open the drivers side when you lube the steering bracket or check the coils, so it would not be disturbed as often on that side. Just a temporary disguise until you can solve the actual problem.
Norm

I did some measuring last night...
Drivers side frame rail or radiator sticks out ahead of passenger side by 1/16th-1/8th of an inch. Going out to further investigate... not sure which it is yet.

Investigation findings:
The flat ears that attach the radiator to the frame are not drilled by BW symmetrically, causing one side of the radiator to be ahead of the other.
Off by 1/5th of an inch. (.19 as measured by digital calipers)
Weld one hole shut and redrill?

Professor Fate wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:46 pm

Investigation findings:
The flat ears that attach the radiator to the frame are not drilled by BW symmetrically, causing one side of the radiator to be ahead of the other.
Off by 1/5th of an inch. (.19 as measured by digital calipers)
Weld one hole shut and redrill?

Yes.
You might be able to get by elongating the bad hole.
Depends on your skill level & equipment.

That'll do it! A mig weld will introduce less heat. It doesn't need to be well finished. I'd elongate the hole first, and add just enough weld to keep the top hat where it needs to be. This might mean just two or three welds to keep it in place. The weld does not need to be continuous.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

After seeing the repro hood pics posted earlier, I think the hood I have is also. It has the tell tale bulges and warps as seen and noted in the post.
So I have multiple things at work here, making it difficult and challenging to say the least.

Model T’s aren’t Rolls Royce’s and I’m content I have the hood fit up on my 3 cars pretty good for a car that was built for practical purposes and not a precise piece of engineering perfection like a Rolls.

Question.... has anyone ever filled with weld the existing radiator bolt holes and relocated them?

I wold avoid any welding on the frame. If your frame is "diamonded" or "z-d" to any significant extent, most everything on the chassis will be somewhat out of line, including axles, body mounts, fender and running board attachments, engine mounts, etc. Measurements can be taken to determine if the frame is bent and to what degree. It might not be difficult to straighten the frame, and getting it straight will make the whole car look better, ride better, steer better, and prevent issues with unusual tire wear, quirky handling, exessive squeaks, and various bodywork and mechanical items being out of line. I'd also want to look for any evidence of loose rivets, cracks, or obvious distortion anywhere on the frame and crossmenbers.

Maybe running with a half hood or hoodless would solve the visual. I could just run it and deal with it later....
The frame was square and straight when I had it on sawhorses 2 years ago.
Thanks to everyone for thoughts and advice.

Am I missing something? if the large hole in the steel member through the lower section of the core is not central, the radiator cannot sit squarely. From the photo, the shell appears to have a gap down the left side. If this is the case, and the hole in the plate is off-set to the back of the plate, then there is the answer. Centralising the hole will bring that side of the radiator back, closing the gap.

I have had occasion to deliberately offset one of those large holes to get a good fit with a nickel plated brass 26-7 shell. Having the hood sit correctly on those is essential. How many such shells have been worn right through due to ill fitting hoods?

Allan from down under.

Late breaking investigation discovery.....
I have a bent passenger side wishbone. See pic.
Will this will pull the passenger side frame back and push the drivers side forward. U think this is at least a contributor?
Gap on wishbone bend is proud of 1/4 in.

Enhanced view

Check the axle also. The 27 tudor I worked on had a bent wishbone and wheelbase measured 1 inch difference side to side. Axle was bent. I assume from hit on front wheel.

Drivers side measures a half inch longer from leaf spring to leaf spring. I'm thinking axle might be bent too. Gotta straight edge it. Can't detect by eye.

Dan

to your latest question: no

A bent wishbone or axle would in itself not distort the frame, however the same thing which bent them could cause a tweak in the frame by pushing back on the same side where the spring is attached. Check diagonally from one point on the front of one side of the frame to a point at the other side toward the back of the frame. Then check diagonally in the opposite direction. If one measurement is longer than the other, your frame is bent. These bends can also cause the engine to be out of line at the rear and the steering to pull to one side while going forward.
Norm

Has the out of kilter hole in the radiator cross bar been fixed yet?

Allan from down under.

Just saw you're looking for a new wish-bone. As in this one cannot be fixed? Suit yourself, but you might want to pass it along to someone who actually has a damaged part.

A little bit of math will show that the 1/4" bow did not shorten the length of anything beyond normal tolerance, and it is not distorted or weakened to where it cannot easily be put right.

I got my W/B off the '26 today.Going to straighten it out tomorrow and will be back on the car before sundown. Thanks.
I'm going to loosen the body and steering column soon and see if the body reposition can reduce some of the gap.

Put the car on the floor and off jackstands. Loosened the body from the frame and loosened up the radiator and rod. Moved body around and was able to reduce gap but not eliminate. But much improved. Doors close and open nicely.
Thanks for all the help.

Have you tried loosing or tightening the nuts which hold the radiator to the front of the frame? Sometimes if you increase the spring tension on one side and decrease it on the other side, it will tilt the front of the radiator to equalize the gap in the hood.
Norm

Hi Norm. Yes I did try that. It helped a little. Was part of the sum of changes made that improved the situation.
Thank you for advice. Much appreciated.