MTFCA Forum

Howdy. I am a newbie, currently attempting a restoration out of my parents' garage. I just got my engine back together for a test after coming back from the machine shop. I only had the cylinders bored, I did not have any babbit work done, as I was hoping to avoid going over budget, and believed I had a few years before it needed babbit work. Now that everything is torqued down, there are a whole lot of problems that were not evident before the teardown.
Note that everything is original, except the shims and connecting rod bolts.

First and foremost, there is crankshaft end play, about 0.03" worth. When the engine is shifted, the crank and transmission audibly move back and fourth. This is the only play I can detect, however.
Secondly, when the crank is in its most forward position, the magnet clamps slightly grind on the magneto along the bottom, signifying that the flywheel/transmission is "sagging" enough that the 0.032" gap does not matter. This does not happen when the flywheel is level, however. When the crank is its rearmost position, the gap is about 0.06", and no grinding occurs. The drive plate bolts are as tight as they can be, but the transmission continues to sag and grind the flywheel. The transmission drums and gears also move back and fourth slightly, independently from the crank.
Thirdly, as the crank turns, 2 knocks are heard. I believe this is due to end play, as when the pistons move up, their rods are pushed forward along the crank, but as the pistons move down, the rods are pushed backwards, knocking on the thrust surface of the crank.

I will do anything to get the engine running, hopefully around July. I realize I will likely have to bring the engine to an experienced Model T shop, but I do not have many options due to budget. Any input is apreciated.

Your flywheel is not sagging. Your magneto coil ring needs to shimmed to bring its face parallel to the face of the magnet clamps. The mag ring is held on with 4 bolts. You need to add shims between to mag ring and the engine block at the 2 uppermost mounting areas. This will tip the lower end of the coil ring forward and away from the magnet caps.

You can buy and fit a new rear main bearing cap in order to reduce your crankshaft end play. (Although that's not always a straightforward process)

"Thirdly, as the crank turns, 2 knocks are heard. I believe this is due to end play, as when the pistons move up, their rods are pushed forward along the crank, but as the pistons move down, the rods are pushed backwards, knocking on the thrust surface of the crank."


This is usually due to a bent or twisted connecting rod. Did you tighten or loosen any of the con rod wrist pin clamp bolts? Doing that wrong will bend and/or twist the rod.

I would suggest that if you don't have it, you purchase the two booklets from the club. "Engine", "Transmission". They will take you step by step how to adjust all the parts. The keepers on the magnets should not scrape on the magneto. Should be greater clearance. The magneto ring can be shimmed at the top and at the bottom to give you the same distance all the way around. Only way to take out end play from the crankshaft would be to re-babbit the rear main bearing cap. Sometimes a thin strip of babbit can be added to the rear edge of the cap. This will move the crankshaft back. The crankcase under the engine and transmission must also be perfectly straight and in alignment in order to get everything in line. If it is bent, you could risk broken crankshaft which would lead to a much more expensive repair than to pour the babbit.
Norm

The MTFCA booklets are a must. The knowledge how to repair a Model T is first and foremost. If you need some help to buy them email me through this site and I can help out.

PS-Are some of the repair manuals out of print? Some I cannot find here on the MTFCA site.

Jerry,
The flywheel visibly moves when the engine is shifted. This happens even though the drive plate bolts are completely tight.

WHEN IN DOUBT READ THE INSTRUCTIONS. There are a few things about assembling a T engine you usually don’t know about when building up a T engine if you hadn’t been around them that much.
At least buy the Ford service manual to start with. Reading up on Model T engine rebuilding really will help you getting your T engine at least close to where it should be. Good luck.

The manuals that are available will help you to understand what NOT TO DO and keep you from doing unnecessary attempted adjustments.

Quote" First and foremost, there is crankshaft end play, about 0.03" worth. When the engine is shifted, the crank and transmission audibly move back and fourth. This is the only play I can detect, however.
Secondly, when the crank is in its most forward position, the magnet clamps slightly grind on the magneto along the bottom, signifying that the flywheel/transmission is "sagging" enough that the 0.032" gap does not matter.

I hate to say it but if you are correct in measurements at plus .030" then you need to line bore the block and grind crank.
You're not going to shim that out as stock end play should be .004"
The crank moving back and forth is going to load the pistons if you get it running and cause further problems.
Someone else suggested getting a rear main cap and try your hand at fitting it but if you're not skilled in engines then shaving and fitting babbitt will be an experience to get the end play and also fit the main journal of crank.

The other issue that may arise is; Did you have the crank crack checked as it may be cracked? With .030' end play this may be a reality.

Could this be related to a bent crankshaft or bent crankshaft flange? A rear main cap swapped from another engine and not fitted? A crankshaft swapped from another engine and not fitted? Bent transmission shaft? What if one triple gear pin or bushing was very loose?

To those telling me to buy a service manual, I already have 5 of them. I’m simply asking for a little insight on these problems.

I wouldn’t be surprised if previous work caused these problems. When I bought the car, it was clearly in the middle of restoration when it was left. It was a cut 1919 touring with a ‘24 roadster trunk on it at the time.

The engine has been worked on before, as the bearing caps have been numbered. There is plenty of reckless work history on this thing. At some point, someone cut a massive hole in the front of the gear case and patched it with brass screws, steel plates, and cardboard as gaskets. I still don’t know why that is, or how it’s going to be fixed. There’s also tons of holes in the case drilled and filled with various bolts and screws. The clutch yoke is brazed in place and impossible to remove.

It’s all very, very ususual.

I suggest you find someone in your area with Model T engine experience who is willing to have a look at what you have there. It sounds like you may have an engine/transmission that has been severely worn/damaged and been improperly repaired. I can't imagine why anyone would cut a hole in the timing cover. Broken timing gears could knock a hole in the cover, and probably do more damage. Most Model T engine and transmission parts are still available, and even today people are scrapping such parts. You should be able to come up with a rebuildable engine and transmission, or most any parts needed to build what you have, without spending a fortune. (Although it sounds like someone has "done a number" on what you have)

I have done the built up of the thrust using babbitt on the rear cap, then filed to fit. While that is one way to go, you can run into issues because there can be a cup worn in the flywheel flange which will make it hard to get a good fit. The parts suppliers do sell a piece that goes at the front between the engine and pulley to take up end play. https://www.modeltford.com/item/3030SHIM.aspx That part might work but would depend on how tight your pulley is on the shaft.
When I first got into running and driving my T, I fitted the replacement caps to my engine. Figuring if Ford built cars without babbitt in the block just replacing the caps would be ok with the babbitt that was still in the block. Ran that way for a lot of miles. While I am not going to recommend doing that, it can work. Right now that endplay is too much. Another option would be remove the coil ring and run a distributor.

PaladinBirdy wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:52 pm

Jerry,
The flywheel visibly moves when the engine is shifted. This happens even though the drive plate bolts are completely tight.

I believe you when you say the flywheel moves. With .030 end play, it should! The drive plate bolts have zero impact on that.
My point was, the faces of the magnet clamp plates and the face of the coil ring, should be parallel to each other. By your description, they do not appear to be. However, as others have pointed out, even if the two faces were parallel, .030 is likely too much play to overcome and instead of just rubbing on the bottom edge of the coil ring, you'd be rubbing across the whole face.

You really need to seek out other Model T owners in your area, or of possible, join a local chapter of MTFCA or MTFCI.

PaladinBirdy wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:18 am

To those telling me to buy a service manual, I already have 5 of them. I’m simply asking for a little insight on these problems.

I wouldn’t be surprised if previous work caused these problems. When I bought the car, it was clearly in the middle of restoration when it was left. It was a cut 1919 touring with a ‘24 roadster trunk on it at the time.

The engine has been worked on before, as the bearing caps have been numbered. There is plenty of reckless work history on this thing. At some point, someone cut a massive hole in the front of the gear case and patched it with brass screws, steel plates, and cardboard as gaskets. I still don’t know why that is, or how it’s going to be fixed. There’s also tons of holes in the case drilled and filled with various bolts and screws. The clutch yoke is brazed in place and impossible to remove.

It’s all very, very ususual.

Maybe if you post some photos, we would better undertsand your many issues.

His issue is worn rear main thrust.
Actually approx. an extra .007 wider gap should be allowed at the bottom of the magneto coil ring for flex, so approx. .025 gap at the top and .032 at the bottom for example.
If the gap is set at .025 at the top with the engine in the vertical position, running in high gear/direct that would be your gap, .025 approx at the top, the clutch spring would tend to push the whole assembly forward. When the clutch is disengaged, that would tend to allow the flywheel to move back, could add the .030 wear you have now to the .025 so the gap between the magnet plates and magneto coil ring at the top could be about .055 top and .062 at the bottom.

I’d love if I could find someone I could pay to do proper work on it. I just have no T clubs in my area. Both of the TN clubs I have been recommended are hours away from Middle TN. I’m trying to find someone in my area who can do the work.

Well, that doesn’t sound so bad actually. Just gotta find someone within weekend trip distance

Joe Bell in Tiffin, OH would be a good guy to check out. Great work and a super nice guy. He posts on the forum from time to time. Look him up and send him a PM or email.

Lots of options here, some better than others. The best is to have the main bearings redone. $$. You can get a rebabbitted rear cap from the vendors and fit it to your engine. Third, it is possible to build up the worn out front thrust surface on your rear cap and fit it to your crank to get the end play under control. The second option and particularly the third may sound crude, but model T’s respond very well to less than perfect conditions. That’s part of why there are so many of them left. If you were anywhere close I would just have you come by and do your bearings with me for enough to cover expenses.