MAGNETO OR NOT

[DickC]

I needed to adjust the clutch on my 25 coupe and opened the transmission door. As I lifted the door (with the screen) I heard a clink. I looked into the transmission and found a magnet clamp. Not a good sign but glad I found it before any major damage. I have converted to a 12 volt system and alternator and run on battery as it seems to run smother. (please don't give me a lecture on that conversion) I LIKE IT.
The question I have relates to having the mag ring or not and what is involved in removing the mag? What takes up the space on the fly wheel?
This whole thing is depressing as the car runs soooo good and I was prepping for a tour in a week!!!!!!!

[AndreFordT]

Hi Dick,

I don't know what the others think about it but I should not run the car till you have repaired the magneto or took it out.
The part you found keeps the magnets in place. If one magnet start to live his own life in the engine, it will distroy your engine and transmission.
I saw it once, the driver heard a klin during the ride and he drove the car home. Result a few thousand Dollars of repair.

Just my opinoin.
Andre
Belgium.

[Stephen_heatherly]

The magneto must be fixed or removed before you drive the car more. At this point it's just a matter of time before it flies apart and destroys your engine and transmission

Stephen

[Joe Bell]

I have built many engines and as they have said do not run it before repairing it, The stock mag is as reliable as the come, there is a point where you can out run the ignition that is why some choose to go to distributors, with a dist. I would carry extra points and condensors so it does not leave you setting some day, with the stock mag you can always limp home on three coils.

[Professor Fate]

Take advantage of the situation and inspect and freshen up the motor and transmission while you have it apart.

[DickC]

Thanks for the comments. I am well aware of the potential destruction a loose magnet can cause. I have had T's for 50 years, rebuilt some, restored some but have never eliminated the mag. That is the question at hand. I am ready to pull the engine and am leaning toward eliminating the mag. I currently do not run on mag as the engine runs much smoother on battery and the 12 volts/alternator works well. Is there something I need to install to replace the space of the mag ring on the fly wheel?

[ironhorse]

If you decide to remove the magneto and magnets you need to replace them with oil slingers such as these from Lang's https://www.modeltford.com/item/3276SL.aspx . am sure the other vendors have similar products. If you just remove the magneto then you don't get enough oil movement because you just have a "slick" flywheel and you need that oil to be splashed especially if you have an external oiler.

[John Illinois]

I used Texas T oil slingers to replace the magnets. These replace the magnets to circulate oil.
Typed Slow.

John

[John Codman]

If your T runs smoother on Battery (even 12V battery) then on Mag, there is a problem with the magneto anyway. The magneto puts out quite a bit more voltage then even a 12 Volt battery.

[Scott_Conger]

Many times when a T "runs smoother on the battery" it is a simple case of coils which were maladjusted in the first place.

Given the opportunity to buy either of two T's, I would never purchase the T which lacked a magneto. They're hard enough to sell as it is, as evidenced by the plethora of $8K cars in the classifieds most of which look very nice, that still take months to sell.

[TXGOAT2]

Removing the engine/transmission will allow you to repair the magneto and remove any stray parts in the engine pan while making any other needed repairs or adjustments. The stock ignition / electrical system is fully adequate and quite reliable and versatile. If you choose to eliminate the magneto, removing the magnets and related parts will lighten the flywheel substantially, which may not be a good idea on an otherwise stock engine, especially with a closed car. A light flywheel will reduce available torque at lower engine speeds and will increase torsional vibration applied to the driveline. Overall engine and driveline vibration and noise could be expected to increase. I would expect to find that the car's overall performance in general driving situations would decrease.

[Steve Jelf]

What John said. The car should run better on MAG. I suppose the question of whether to keep or remove the magneto is philosophical. Some see the Ford ignition system as an essential element of the Model T, the heart and soul of the Flivver. Others, not so much. You will be pulling the engine, removing the transmission, and dismantling the magneto. I would go ahead and rebuild it, charging the magnets and, if needed, replacing or rewinding the mag ring. The car will run great on MAG and will be good to go for another hundred years.

[TXGOAT2]

Is there any possibility of replacing the magnet clamp with the engine and transmission in the car, such as by removing the hogshead or starter?

[Steve Jelf]

Why was the clamp loose? Because the screw which was holding it broke. The fifteen other screws are just as old and have undergone a similar amount of stress during their century of work life. You want to replace them all before they break too. It may be possible in theory to replace all the screws through the starter and Bendix holes, but I wouldn't want to try it.

[Norman Kling]

You would need to pull the engine and transmission to get to the magneto whether or not you pull it. While it is out you can replace any cracked magnets, and replace all the screws. You can also re-charge the magnets and replace the ring with a freshly rewound one. That should give you a magneto which will last for many years. You could also remove the magnets and place slingers and use a distributor. Let me warn you, I know of people who has the slingers break while driving, and many distributors or alternators go bad on tours. So that change might not be the best solution for your car, but it is one you will need to make for yourself. You can always carry a spare timer and one or two spare coils with you and the car will run on either magneto or battery, but if you convert to distributor, you are on your own because almost every distributor is different depending on what is available for sale at the time the conversion is made. And if the distributor goes bad, you are out of it until it is repaired.
I would also recommend that while you have the engine out, you go through the engine and repair or replace all parts needing attention. That way you won't need to pull it again for a long time.
Norm

[speedytinc]

Is there any possibility of replacing the magnet clamp with the engine and transmission in the car, such as by removing the hogshead or starter?

The sane answer is NO. How you going to work the screws into place THROUGH the field coil? I suppose it could be possible to drill a LARGE hole thru one coil center iron that lines up with the brass screws. There is still the issue of checking for cracked magnets.

Be wary of those sheet metal slingers. Those units from the south had a reputation of coming apart. The welded ones you reference make me nervous. Thats a break point. The type of slinger you need is another debatable subject.

[Rich P. Bingham]

I recall while reading period "how to" articles on building the T engine for speed that at least one opinion stated the starter rung gear was adequate to sling enough oil to keep things running. What's the updated opinion ? My intuition has me feeling it may not be enough ?

[speedytinc]

I recall while reading period "how to" articles on building the T engine for speed that at least one opinion stated the starter rung gear was adequate to sling enough oil to keep things running. What's the updated opinion ? My intuition has me feeling it may not be enough ?

I have heard that also, but, I have also heard of that causing a big fail. I offer anyone running just the ring gear to watch the oil movement with a clear trans cover & video it. Until then, I wont risk it. For that matter, I would like to see the same experiment with the spools only slingers.

[TRDxB2]

What each of us is capable of doing isn't always a solution for someone else. Part of the pro's & con's of this discussion should include the costs involved. list estimates separately for each point.
1. The cost of removing the magneto coil assembly - labor only of pulling the engine and removing the old magneto assembly
2. Replacement options - labor + material
a. With new Magneto assembly
or
b. with slingers
3. Then the cost of putting the rest of the engine transmission back together and in the car.

Questionable opinions from the Devil's Advocate
-The possibility of oil slingers failing seams pointless when the problem here is about magneto magnet failing. Choose your poison.
-Having or not having a magneto doesn't have much to do with defaulting to having a distributor.
-Needing to carry extra ignition parts because of a possible failure and lack of available parts from a parts store
Isn't it more likely to find parts for a modern Bosch clip on or front plate distributor (VW -points, condenser, and a distributor cap) Than anything a magneto or timer part from Autozone. Yes! - carry parts for a Timer or Vintage distributor ignition system
-Having it with a working magneto adds value to a potential buyer - The less they know the more its likely to be true. The more they know the more questions will be asked (was it replaced, when, by whom, etc) that may cause the price to drop.
"Runs Better" doesn't mean it runs as it should

[JTT3]

For what it’s worth, your pulling the engine anyway, you have the face plate/clamp and if it’s in good shape you can use it again. First thing I would do after removing the engine, the pan & hogshead is to put it on its nose and check the gap of the remaining face plates to the field coil. If they are within tolerance .025-.040, if not shim the field coil to get it in tolerance, if so I would consider ordering new brass screws and replacing each one one at a time for each of the face plates. Place a mark on the flywheel and crank so you know where to locate it back after repair so you don’t change the balance that the engine has been running with. Perhaps the reason it wasn’t running very well on mag was because of the lose or missing face plate. Whether you decide to charge the magnets or not, leave all the stuff on it is easier than removing the screws the magnets and then putting in slingers.just my opinion but based on you making a tour soon it may be the best option considering the time you alluded to.

[DickC]

Got the engine out, pan down and transmission off. I really was lucky to have decided to adjust the clutch when I did. In addition to the one mag clamp that fell out of the oil screen, I found two more in the pan and two more that were ready to let go on the mag. None of them were side by side to let a magnet go. LUCKY!!!

[RajoRacer]

Better go out & buy a lottery ticket !!!

[RalphS in NE Oregon]

A couple years ago I bought a 1914 roadster with a completely (I thought) rebuilt engine in it, but it had been converted to a starter with an external alternator and distributor. I want to restore it to magneto operation but found with a little exploration that the magnets had not been installed with the rebuild, so I will need to take the engine out to install all the missing pieces.
Even if you don't want to run on mag, when you put it back together fix all the magneto parts - the next guy to own your car will appreciate that you did.
Ralph

[Tim Rogers]

Ralphed nailed it. As long as it is apart- restore the magneto. Doesn't mean you have to use it but make it functional and it will add value to your car. Besides, Ts run the best on mag!

[1925 Touring]

Here's my two cents worth.
We have a 1925 Touting in the family. The magneto has not worked for 11 years or so. We have never had any problems with starting, or driving, or going up a hill. My grandfather restored the car out of parts he bought at auctions and swap meets. The car was switched to 8 volts, so that may be part of it as well. Not being a Model T expert, I would say if the engine is out as it is, take the time and restore the magneto.

[Craig Leach]

I believe Wayne M. broke a magnet that punched a hole in the hogs head and locked up the engine. He had a 4 dip pan and removed all the magnets and replaced the ring gear screws in the car. Only to find out that part of the broken magnet had gone through the triple gears and broke several teeth. If you remove the magnets without taking the engine out and tearing it down make sure you account for every part.
Craig.

[Novice]

I have a 26 touring without a magneto. It revs up fast but stalls easily. You haft to keep rpms up when you start moving in first gear or reverse otherwise You kill the engine. emergency stops often kill it as well if your feet are not in the right place and you hit the brake before the clutch. and you haft to dump the throttle at the same time or the engine races like crazy. Nothing like having a T die in traffic!
My 26 open express has the magneto and you can't kill it. lots of torque at low rpm. slow revving smother running. If you remove the magneto you need to consider adding weight to the flywheel to make up the 60lbs ? or so of lost flywheel inertia. a racehorse or a plow horse.

[DickC]

Thanks for all the comments, hints and support. This should be my last update. Finished the clean-up and removal of the magneto with the help of Clyde Mengis in Fayetteville NC. Looking over the rods and journals and the rest of the inside of the engine I was impressed with the great condition of the engine. We finished the installation and I was able to run the engine. It sounded like a million bucks and it only cost half that!! Thanks again, Dick C.