Chatter slow speed & reverse

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2727
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Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by 2727 » Sat May 14, 2022 8:45 am

recently succeeded getting a '26 T running that came from an estate & know no history on (see thread "Distributor Question") Have not yet insured or registered car so only road tested on my dead end street. Engaging low & reverse creates a substantial chatter and braking is pretty poor. Removed trans inspection cover. Band linings appear Kevlar & are meaty. There is in place a transmission screen which was pretty clogged with greyish color lint. Screen has been cleaned and engine oil changed. I've had past experience with Jim Guinn's wood band linings which I liked. He recommends adding 4 oz Dextron trans fluid to engine oil to help chatter problem. What are pros & cons on doing same with Kevlar linings? I'm hoping to give the Kevlar a chance but would like smooth engagement Appreciate any input.

Thank you,
Peter


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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by speedytinc » Sat May 14, 2022 10:53 am

They must be badly glazed or burned. Good kevlars dont chatter & in fact feel like soft cotton lining. They can be removed & re riveted with the new side out. Hogs head must be removed . The worse news. That lint is a strong indication of a cracked drum shaving the band. Lift a wheel & have a friend turn the motor over whall you look @ the drum surfaces. That lint can get in the oil holes & prevent good internal lubrication. No additives are necessary & wont cure your problem.


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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by Norman Kling » Sat May 14, 2022 11:15 am

The bands should not be too tight. They should engage about 1 1/2 inches above the floorboard. If the cams which cause the pedal shafts to slide in or out of the transmission are worn, it is impossible to get the adjustment loose enough and still engage above the floorboard. When you get them 1 1/2 inches above the floor the bands are still too tight with the pedals all the way back. This same condition can be caused if the pedals have been bent from pushing down hard.
Another possible problem would be if the lining is not installed correctly on the bands or the bands are not round. The lining should hang over the end of the band by about 3/16 inch and the rivets at each end installed first. Then the lining is pressed against the band and the other rivets are places from each end to the center. When the lining is correctly installed it will lay flat against the band. If it is tight from rivet to rivet and away from the band between rivets, the lining will drag the drum.and will wear out quickly and with Kevlar, it will make the drums hot. So be sure it is correctly installed.
If all the above is correct, and no cracks in the drums, it could be your method or applying the low or reverse. When you apply the pedal, push all the way down to stop the drum quickly. Do not ease it into gear as you would do with a stick shift. You need to get the idle high enough so not to kill the engine and then as you press down quickly on the pedal you increase the gas. You will need to get the idle a bit faster is you are starting out going uphill but still engage the pedal quickly.
Norm


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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by 2727 » Sat May 14, 2022 12:43 pm

Thank you,
I don't believe the bands are too tight. Pressing HARD on the pedal there is a healthy inch space between bottom of pedal & floor mat. I'm very inclined to remove bands & inspect lining condition, band roundness, etc, but hope to do so thru inspection cover as there are no oil leaks now. By the way, my first test drive I revved the engine speed to what I thought was normal and it chattered pretty good. Tried a lower rpm & stomped a little harder and the chatter was less severe but still noticeable. Car is 1926 and naturally has detachable ears so is it mandatory to pull hogs head? Thanks for the input.

Peter


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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by speedytinc » Sat May 14, 2022 1:45 pm

2727 wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 12:43 pm
Thank you,
I don't believe the bands are too tight. Pressing HARD on the pedal there is a healthy inch space between bottom of pedal & floor mat. I'm very inclined to remove bands & inspect lining condition, band roundness, etc, but hope to do so thru inspection cover as there are no oil leaks now. By the way, my first test drive I revved the engine speed to what I thought was normal and it chattered pretty good. Tried a lower rpm & stomped a little harder and the chatter was less severe but still noticeable. Car is 1926 and naturally has detachable ears so is it mandatory to pull hogs head? Thanks for the input.

Peter
With kevlar its important to maintain the perfect round condition. No, CRITICAL. H/H must be removed for a re install as you would for wood bands.

There can be no drag. Adjusting should be done in a way that insures this. Adjust low with the motor running. LOW: tighten until you just start to hear the tripple gears change tone(grumble). then back off 1/2 turn.. the other 2 are a bit of a guess, but listen for the tripple gear slight engagement when pushing the pedal. before pushing those pedals there should be no gear noise.


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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 14, 2022 1:48 pm

A well tuned car on paved level ground, should be able to be eased into either low or reverse at an engine idle speed.

Reving the engine or any other sort of drama is counter productive

Imagine if your job was to stop the shaft of an electric motor from turning. Do you: A) grab it as hard as you can while it is running or B) turn it off and wait until it is turning at a very low speed and then squeeze the shaft until it stops?

when you step on the pedal, you are trying to STOP the drum from turning, so do you want to A) rev it up as fast as you can, so as to create the most friction, heat, and effort to get it stopped, or B) run it as slow as practical and stop it quickly, while allowing the torque of the 95# transmission assembly carry you forward? Neither low, reverse nor high were designed or intended to be subjected to much slippage. The question then arises: "How do you use the brake to slow down, then?". The answer is: "You do not". Under non-emergency situations, you slow down with the throttle and you stop with the brake.

Finally, just because the band grabs at 1" from the floorboard does not mean the band is loose. If the pedal ramp and pedal support are worn down, you are forced to run the band tight in order to get it to grab at all. With Kevlar, this means constant drag, constant heat, possibly a cracked drum, and fuzzy fibers in the transmission screen (they are all over the inside of the engine, too, if they are showing up as a mat in the screen). Hopefully you are not dealing with a cracked drum, but I've seen plenty of "T"'s sold as "drivers" after the drum breaks because the owner knew full well the effort and expense involved in fixing it.
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sat May 14, 2022 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by Norman Kling » Sat May 14, 2022 1:48 pm

If the bands are on in the direction that the removable ear is against the side where the pedals are, you can easily remove them. you will need to remove the springs and pull out the shafts on the brake and reverse. Back off the low speed adjuster to allow the spring to be removed. Then you can rotate the bands enough to get the removable ear to the top and remove. Then pull the band out the opposite direction. Before you do any work such as removing the nuts washers and springs, stuff some rags into the transmission so if anything drops it can be retrieved before it goes all the way to the bottom. Also remove the key and anything else which could possibly fall into the transmission. One thing I have found out the hard way, is when you remove the nut from the end of the pedal shaft, the band can spring suddenly and knock it down, so be very careful.
Norm


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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by jiminbartow » Sat May 14, 2022 2:10 pm

I don’t know why, but alot of people don’t like this tool, but I sure do. It prevents the bands from springing apart like Norman described and has prevented that from happening to me. I highly recommend it. Don’t forget the rags in the space to the right of the band nuts, all along the passenger side of the hogshead. Fill all spaces and take your time. Jim Patrick

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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 14, 2022 3:10 pm

Something I did not consider: does this car have a Ruckstell? If it does, it may well have 3:1 rear axle ratio which could make it a bear to get rolling. If that is the case, then starting in Ruckstell (rear axle low) will solve the bulk of difficulty getting rolling.
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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by DanTreace » Sat May 14, 2022 3:24 pm

Could be ‘chatter’ is from worn trans bushing, gears, drums too, a rattling ‘chatter’ can be the driveline, u-joint or rear end when getting underway or when stopping.

When using low pedal, band chatter comes from worn lining .

This T on tour had hydraulic brakes, so band chatter was from low pedal, and poor low go, owner kept adjusting ‘worn’ lining til no more adjustment left. Taking off the inspection plate and looking close while hand cranking over showed cause of worn lining, years old worn down, sharp edged and now cracked drum eating that lining.



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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by 2727 » Sat May 14, 2022 4:11 pm

Car does have a Ruckstell, but not being a hot rodder my road test has been done in ruckstell lo. Bands are coming out at my leisurely way of doing things so it will be a while before I post results. I need to find my band clip as shown. No one mentioned to count the rags that one packs in and count the rags removed but I will.

Peter


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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 14, 2022 5:11 pm

Peter

I have to say that as a new T owner, before you start pulling things apart, do yourself a favor and ask a seasoned T driver to drive the car.

For one thing, Kevlar bands should never be refit through a hog's head door. They need to be PERFECT in roundness and not sprung at all. It is all but impossible to feed them through the door and not distort them...it is tricky enough to install them WITHOUT the hog's head and not spring them if it is your first time doing it. Kevlar is a miracle if you drive the car correctly and the hog's head is completely rebuilt and in perfect condition and the bands are completely round. Any deviation from the above description and you are headed for trouble and will become one of the folks who curse them for the damage they can cause.
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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by Norman Kling » Sat May 14, 2022 9:13 pm

T brakes are not as good as modern 4 wheel disc brakes! However if you are in low Ruckstell, and you remain in gear when you stop, your Ruckstell will actually amplify the compression of the engine and the stopping power of the transmission brake. When you want to stop slow down to almost a stop before you put it in neutral. The compression of the engine combined with the brake will help you stop. Also if you pump the brake, it will allow oil to cool the band so it won't get too hot. I highly recommend auxiliary brakes when using Ruckstell. But remember the foot brake, the auxiliary brake and the parking brake only stop the rear wheels, and when they lock up you have a very small surface of tire on the road, so it will still not stop like a modern car. It is easier to maintain space in front of you to begin slowing down before you come upon a signal, stop sigh, or slower car ahead of you. Always try to leave space to stop in front of you when you follow someone.
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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by 2727 » Mon May 16, 2022 8:53 pm

Today I removed the bands. I no longer believe they are Kevlar or meaty. 2 out of three have rivets worn a lot. To my surprise, all 3 drums & bands are narrow style. Brake drum has a score mark but not deep, no cracks in any of the drums and all the pedal ramps look good. I'm going to reline with Kevlar. What should the relaxed diameter of the bands be? As they came out, they measure about 9". My opinion is they should be formed to a slightly smaller diameter. Any suggestions?

Thank you,
Peter

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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by DanTreace » Mon May 16, 2022 9:04 pm

Peter

When re-shaping bent or out-of-round bands, strive for a gap between the ears of the bands of 4" to 4.5". The band should be shaped to this contour prior to fitting the linings.




Band above in photo is prior to re-shaping.

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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon May 16, 2022 10:44 pm

All as Dan said...PLUS, when you gently pinch the ears "closed" the band should close as a PERFECT circle and not rub prematurely on the drum...even when ever so slightly larger than the drum, the bands must not have a preferential area where they rub...they must be totally free of the drum.

if at all possible borrow a used drum to use as a go-nogo fixture when making them circular
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Re: Chatter slow speed & reverse

Post by Allan » Tue May 17, 2022 12:23 am

Peter, I went back to your distributor post and checked out the photo you posted. Based solely on what I could see of the right hand hood shelf, your car is not a 1926 model. That would explain why you have no wide brake band/drum on the transmission. Some more photos of the car would help.

Allan from down under.

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