MTFCA Forum

I did a little exploring this morning on my ‘26. I think, based on what I hear on here, that this is bad. True? Replace the roller, too? Could this be causing the misfire? I’ll probably just go back to stock at this time.

Well, that didn’t work….

It won’t let me post another picture, but the inside of the case has big dips and ridges. It’s not a smooth perfect circle inside.

I'd replace ALL of it.
Too bad you can't get one of the late Tony Wiltshire's TW timers. Man they run good..you would just need the modern oil seal around the cam though. Tony's timer doesn't like oil-- at all!

Do I have the Carbon Brush style?

Looks like the standard Ford style roller brush on the camshaft using the usual commutator case

CatGuy wrote: ↑

Sat May 14, 2022 5:25 pm

It won’t let me post another picture, but the inside of the case has big dips and ridges. It’s not a smooth perfect circle inside.

Wash board road. timer skips firing @ higher RPMs.
Fit the symptoms?? Change the timer & get those coils tuned & you should be @ least 80%.

The roller timers are supposed to be cleaned out and oiled occasionally. That certainly looks dry in the picture.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Sat May 14, 2022 6:48 pm

CatGuy wrote: ↑

Sat May 14, 2022 5:25 pm

It won’t let me post another picture, but the inside of the case has big dips and ridges. It’s not a smooth perfect circle inside.

Wash board road. timer skips firing @ higher RPMs.
Fit the symptoms?? Change the timer & get those coils tuned & you should be @ least 80%.

Yep!

Snyder’s has the same style roller style timer you have. Well made timer https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/prod ... &cat=41853

I posted earlier that you do not show the thin steel disc that goes on before the roller is fitted to the camshaft. This is part of the felt seal deal, keeping the seal in place and giving it something to seal against. The rest is standard roller timer stuff, and sounds well worn out by your description.

Allan from down under.

While you're tinkering in this area you might want to replace the felt cam seal with a modern neoprene one. Then a dust shield isn't required. FWIW, I have a New Day from Tip Top Timers that works great. 5000+ miles and still going strong.

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Sun May 15, 2022 12:06 pm

While you're tinkering in this area you might want to replace the felt cam seal with a modern neoprene one. Then a dust shield isn't required. FWIW, I have a New Day from Tip Top Timers that works great. 5000+ miles and still going strong.

Is that hard or take special tools?

Nope - pretty easy as I recall, just presses in.

This from the Lang's Catalog:
"Timer oil seal, modern neoprene seal, use to replace timer felt and brass shield by pressing into front timing cover. (Highly recommend - Using the original felt and brass shield can be a source of trouble when they become worn or damaged.)

LANGS TECH TIP! the area in the timing cover where the seal mounts varies in diameter and occasional this seal fits loosely in the timing cover. To fix this situation place the seal in a vise between two pieces of wood and squeeze front and back sides together which will increase the outer diameter and improve the fit."

Some recommend putting the seal in flat side first, makes it easier to remove and replace in the future.

Scott...when you press in the modern cam seal, it's a good idea to smear a film of RTV oil resistant black silicone sealant around it, helps hold it in better.

Once you install that new roller and cap your car will run a lot better.

As far as using the modern seal it is a definite improvement. I have them in my 3 T’s.
I use a deep socket out of my socket set and carefully tap it in. Use a socket that’s just under the OD size of the seal.

I have rarely found the modern seals to be better than a loose fit. Rather than crush the seal to hopefully increase the OD, I fit them with a thin strip of brass shim around the outside, along with Loctite sealant of your choice.

Allan from down under.

I don't have the experience of some of the posters. That said, I recently installed a neoprene seal with a friend and it fit snuggly without modification. If you do have trouble getting a tight fit the other posters have suggested ways to address that. I have one in my T and no oil gets by it into my timer, which is designed to be free of any lube.

I like New Day timers, and I hear the current reproductions are excellent. I agree on using the modern seal, and I would put some of this stuff behind it:

I am finally able to post a picture of the interior of the timer. For some reason my phone wouldn't let me post 2 pictures this weekend.

That looks like a Tiger Timer since the insulating material is maroon. Yours is definitely worn with dips in it. I don't know if it would be cost effective to have the roller surface turned back to round. Replacing may be your best option. I have a Tiger Timer that has a perfectly round surface and have never had a miss with it.

Mark Nunn wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 8:32 am

That looks like a Tiger Timer since the insulating material is maroon. Yours is definitely worn with dips in it. I don't know if it would be cost effective to have the roller surface turned back to round. Replacing may be your best option. I have a Tiger Timer that has a perfectly round surface and have never had a miss with it.

Now I'm not sure what to put back in. I've gotten overwhelmed by the choices and opinions. Truthfully I'd just like to replace it with the exact thing that was in. That's simplest for me. I guess you have to adjust the timing, too, if I should change styles. What was stock? Oh, and this may be a stupid question, but how does this work? Where does the electricity come into the timer? Or does the timer just act like a ground? That part is really keeping me guessing.....

That timer is shot. Roller timers are excellent running timers, but they require frequent oiling and cleaning. My suggestion would be to get one of the recent reproduction new day timers and put a neoprene seal on the cam. The new day will still require occasional cleaning, but does not require oiling and cannot short out like a metal cased timer can. The timer completes the circuit for each coil by connecting the windings to ground through the roller and camshaft. You will need to reset your initial timing so that the plugs fire just past TDC with the spark lever fully up.

Stephen

When replacing the timer on a Model T the initial timing (with the spark lever al the way retarded) should be checked and set at 15.5 degrees ATDC.

What was stock? Oh, and this may be a stupid question, but how does this work? Where does the electricity come into the timer? Or does the timer just act like a ground? That part is really keeping me guessing.....

The Ford roller timer is stock. If yours is a Tiger, as Mark suggests, it's the same thing.

The timer is just a four-way switch. Current from the battery or the magneto flows through the coils to fire the spark plugs and the timer grounds each coil in 1-2-4-3 order to complete the circuit.

Here's how to set timing: https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

Catguy
Sometimes on the forum there is lots of advice that is given on a paticular subject. It can be overwhelming for our newer members. Which timer to use is one of those. You are making the right choice in thinking to use a timer that is like the one you have that needs replacing.
A roller timer will work just fine and the one that’s available is a well made one.
You can always try the other timers that are available and the New Day is a great brush type timer that has been around for almost as long as the original roller style.

Most likely a new timer will get you on the road. I would add the modern seal that’s available while your at it. Just remember to occasionally lubricate the roller timer and you’ll be OK.
GOOD LUCK!

John kuehn wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 9:44 am

Catguy
Sometimes on the forum there is lots of advice that is given on a paticular subject. It can be overwhelming for our newer members. Which timer to use is one of those. You are making the right choice in thinking to use a timer that is like the one you have that needs replacing.
A roller timer will work just fine and the one that’s available is a well made one.
You can always try the other timers that are available and the New Day is a great brush type timer that has been around for almost as long as the original roller style.

Most likely a new timer will get you on the road. I would add the modern seal that’s available while your at it. Just remember to occasionally lubricate the roller timer and you’ll be OK.
GOOD LUCK!

I'm trying to find one like I have, but can't seem to find it. Is it obsolete?

Also....with the kind of wear I have here is it possible that it was installed off-center and that's the problem? How do I make sure it's centered?

Off center? Well, it's possible the timing cover was not properly installed. There is a tool you should use any time you install the cover to make sure it is centered on the camshaft - several versions of the tool are available but I've used this one with great success. Pulling the timing cover is easy though plan on replacing the gasket. Me, I like to coat the gasket with a thin coat of Permatex ultra black sealer but I'm sure others have different ideas as to what works best.

If you buy or borrow a centering tool, you can check the alignment of the cover before you make any decision about pulling it.

My two cents - I like New Day timers for their simplicity. That said, you'd probably be smart to stick with something like what you have. The only way to adjust a timer is to bend the rod that connects it to the long rod on the steering shaft so by sticking with the same timer you're less likely to have to get into that. I would, however, suggest you check the timing after the new one is installed. I've used Steve Jelf's instructions and they work fine.

Scott, could be off center, Gene French makes and sells a timer cover alignment tool for a very reasonable price. Handy to have even if you don’t need it now. Right now though you have a ton of questions in multiple areas. At the same time you have a bunch of folks trying to help you with those issues based on their experiences. This exhibits the quality of folks here by their efforts to get you up and going with the best possible outcome. I would strongly encourage you to act on one thing at a time. Handle that issue until resolved, then move to the next issue following the same process. What could happen if you try to tackle multiple issues not knowing if the one issue is causing collateral issues. I do know at least one thing for sure, based on experience, if you don’t have a process and check list of things to do and solve one at a time, you will have a yard sale going on in your garage, get overwhelmed and walk away in frustration. The good folks here want you to succeed but you’ve got a bunch of things that you’re already working on, planning, trying to solve and you’re adding more. The commutator is one of those things that you need to take your time with. A process is needed here. Given the fact you’re thirsting for knowledge, with no help close by puts you in charge of the outcome. An example of disassembling the timer, brush, oil seal & control rod is getting it back together! That is if you remember what you did. Not knowing the engine, you may have a style camshaft with the pin hole that is straight through. You take the brush off and haven’t marked the side where the pin went in, you could be 180 out, causing your to redo work already done. Attaching wires to the new commutator requires you to get them in order and attached so they don’t ground to the plate when clamped ont the timing cover just to mention a few things that could go wrong. Scott it’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon. Take your time, establish a process and succeed. We’re rooting for you.

Do not use the "small" centering tool as shown above - you want the "large" one as John mentioned above as it actually does center the timer case to the timing cover !

Does anyone have a picture of the centering tool being used?

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 10:46 am

Scott, could be off center, Gene French makes and sells a timer cover alignment tool for a very reasonable price. Handy to have even if you don’t need it now. Right now though you have a ton of questions in multiple areas. At the same time you have a bunch of folks trying to help you with those issues based on their experiences. This exhibits the quality of folks here by their efforts to get you up and going with the best possible outcome. I would strongly encourage you to act on one thing at a time. Handle that issue until resolved, then move to the next issue following the same process. What could happen if you try to tackle multiple issues not knowing if the one issue is causing collateral issues. I do know at least one thing for sure based on experience, if you don’t have a process and check list of things to do and solve one at a time, you will have a yard sale going on in your garage, get overwhelmed and walk away in frustration.the good folks here want you to succeed but you’ve got a bunch of things that you’re already working on planning, trying to solve.and your adding more. The commutator is one of those things that you need to take your time with.A process is needed here. Given the fact you’re thirsting for knowledge with no help close by puts you in charge of the outcome. An example of disassembling the timer, brush, oil seal& control rod is getting it back together if you did remember what you did. Not knowing the engine, you may have a style camshaft with the pin hole that is straight through. You take the brush off and haven’t marked the side where the pin went in you could be 180 out, causing your to redo work already done. Attaching wires to the new commutator requires you to get them in order and attached so they don’t ground to the plate when clamped ont the timing cover to mention a few things that could go wrong. Scott it’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon. Take your time, establish a process and succeed. We’re rooting for you.

Really, really good advice for me! I know everyone here is trying to help and I'm grateful! I do tend to get going in all directions at once. At the same time I'd like to make a 'Master List' of parts I need so I don't need to place more orders and pay more in shipping. I can't multi-task as well as I used to, but I still try and that isn't helping.....

CatGuy wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 11:03 am

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 10:46 am

Scott, could be off center, Gene French makes and sells a timer cover alignment tool for a very reasonable price. Handy to have even if you don’t need it now. Right now though you have a ton of questions in multiple areas. At the same time you have a bunch of folks trying to help you with those issues based on their experiences. This exhibits the quality of folks here by their efforts to get you up and going with the best possible outcome. I would strongly encourage you to act on one thing at a time. Handle that issue until resolved, then move to the next issue following the same process. What could happen if you try to tackle multiple issues not knowing if the one issue is causing collateral issues. I do know at least one thing for sure based on experience, if you don’t have a process and check list of things to do and solve one at a time, you will have a yard sale going on in your garage, get overwhelmed and walk away in frustration.the good folks here want you to succeed but you’ve got a bunch of things that you’re already working on planning, trying to solve.and your adding more. The commutator is one of those things that you need to take your time with.A process is needed here. Given the fact you’re thirsting for knowledge with no help close by puts you in charge of the outcome. An example of disassembling the timer, brush, oil seal& control rod is getting it back together if you did remember what you did. Not knowing the engine, you may have a style camshaft with the pin hole that is straight through. You take the brush off and haven’t marked the side where the pin went in you could be 180 out, causing your to redo work already done. Attaching wires to the new commutator requires you to get them in order and attached so they don’t ground to the plate when clamped ont the timing cover to mention a few things that could go wrong. Scott it’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon. Take your time, establish a process and succeed. We’re rooting for you.

Really, really good advice for me! I know everyone here is trying to help and I'm grateful! I do tend to get going in all directions at once. At the same time I'd like to make a 'Master List' of parts I need so I don't need to place more orders and pay more in shipping. I can't multi-task as well as I used to, but I still try and that isn't helping.....

It's hard to not go off in all different directions at once when you're given advice that points in all different directions. Focus on one thing at a time and keep the other bits of advice on the back burner for possible use as "the next step". (Which I guess is the same thing that John T offered above ) Above all, do not get discouraged, we're all rooting for you!

This is my reproduction timing cover alignment tool that is sold by the vendors.

Catguy
A roller style timer like you have is available at Snyder’s antique parts.com. They have them in stock for 69.95.
Tiger was a brand that was a copy of the original Ford style timer. Other less known companies made copies of roller timers also back in the T era. Tiger was a better known brand.
The one that Snyder’s sells is a well made American copy of the original Ford timer. Here is link to Snyder’s.
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/sear ... rcht=Timer

John kuehn wrote: ↑

Mon May 16, 2022 1:47 pm

Catguy
A roller style timer like you have is available at Snyder’s antique parts.com. They have them in stock for 69.95.
Tiger was a brand that was a copy of the original Ford style timer. Other less known companies made copies of roller timers also back in the T era. Tiger was a better known brand.
The one that Snyder’s sells is a well made American copy of the original Ford timer. Here is link to Snyder’s.
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/sear ... rcht=Timer

I just ordered it so we'll see how I like it. Thanks! I also ordered just enough parts to put that part of the T back in good specs. That's it.....except a fan belt as mine is in two layers now.

Cat guy
Here’s a tip when installing your new timer so you can get it right.

Your timer wires look OK by the pic you posted.
DO NOT remove all the timer wires at one time.

Align your old timer with your new timer by aligning the timer rod brackets together. You sort of stack your old timer inside the new timer.

Take off ONE wire at a time and install on the same new timer terminal.
Then take off another and so and so on.
This assures you of keeping the wires on the same corosponding terminal one at a time.

It sounds to simple to get them mixed up but it can easily happen! Good luck!


By doing this you can’t go wrong installing the wires on the correct terminals.

Here's how the timer wires go. If your wire colors don't match this (some repo wiring is colored wrong), just follow the procedure John outlined.


The KRW cover alignment tool shown in Mark Nunn's picture apparently is no longer sold. It's not on Lang's website, and it's in none of the other dealers' catalogues. If you can't borrow one it looks like the only choices are the one Tim posted or nothing

Per my previous post on this thread concerning a centering tool made by Gene French. Quality work at a great price.
https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php? ... 26#p218526

Now Cat what’s s better? Spending $ Willy nilly like it was suggested to you or taking the time to learn about the cars systems and what commonly goes wrong? Sure you’ve got to spend some but at least you’re on the right track. You actually diagnosed and found a problem. The information in this post is invaluable. The knowledge is priceless.

Actually, replacing the shot timer was one of 3 items I suggested to do based on much experience. I never said he HAD to replace it, but suggested it out of expediency and statistical probability based on the history of the car and the symptoms it presented. I doubt that many knowledgeable people on the forum would have wanted to start a tour or cross-country drive with that timer.

So far I'm 100% spot on for the first 1 of 3 items I suggested (against an absolute myriad of possibilities), so if that is willy-nilly, that must be a new phrase for "I was correct". If all 4 coils are new and flawlessly balanced to each other, and the carb is brand new, I'll be wrong on the remainder (except I've seen pix of the coils and I've seen the carb, so am not too worried about them being like new). A coil that usually fires is still a coil that is faulty as it should pretty much always fire (and be balanced either in current or TTF with the other 3), and an NH carb that has not been rebushed and rebuilt in the last 3000-4000 miles is likely worn out with a wobbly throttle shaft. I'm betting that this is the case with this car.

Time will tell, and it will take plenty of time, relative to the 2 days work my advice would have provided. If the journey is important, or the destination is important, there are two different paths to take. I was focused on the destination.

I agree that the timing gear cover shown by Mark Nun is the best one, and recommend that you check for centering. However don't remove the cover unless it is off center. And I warn you that some T's have been fitted with a neoprene seal at the front of the crankshaft where the timing cover is located. If so, you can't get the seal off without separating the crankcase from the block because you can't lift the cover off because the seal goes all the way around. So if you try to remove the cover, you could damage the gasket which should be replaced anyway if the cover is removed, but you might need to remove the engine to get the cover over the crankshaft. The centering won't be quite as noticeable with a New Day timer than with the roller or Anderson flapper timer, however it could alter the timing slightly between cylinders.
Norm

Apparently Quasimodo is ringing his own bells again.

I’m sorry to have caused such arguments. I am torn between wanting to get it on the toad quick to enjoy it and learning as well. I may well end up doing everything that has been suspected that I will need to do….and more. I do have to ask….Is it a big task to remove the timing chain cover? I have a gasket in the mail in case. This car is a ‘26.

Good morning... Removing the timing gear cover is no problem at all, .... Installation of the cover is crucial and it helps with accurate engine ignition timing. A camshaft centering tool is necessary before tightening the bolts.

A slightly off-center timing cover will give different inter-cylinder timing of spark. If the engine has a RAJO head, performance will suffer. With 40PSI compression, performance will suffer in theory but will be well hidden by the overall condition of the motor. The last thing you want to do is pull the cover now, before the engine is running WELL. I would not be inclined to throw another variable/distraction into the mix right now. A face-contact timer like a New Day removes nearly all error of an off-center timer, as will an e-Timer (?) (Mike Kossar can clear that up). These things can become Rabbit Holes for the Curious, so I would focus on a known problem that is directly related to misfiring and work those issues first and foremost.

Once the engine is running smoothly, then I would tackle the cover issue...if it is even an issue at all...it could well be perfectly centered if the engine was last torn down in the era when repairmen knew of such things. If it was removed/replaced in the '50's or later, by a hobbiest, it's probably off-center.

My first car was my '13. It routinely tried to break my arm when I first bought it, with a coil box with intermittent shorts which would cause 2 coils to fire simultaneously at times. After spending 5 months troubleshooting on my own, I eventually made the 4 repairs I related on another thread. The car ran wonderfully, though was admittedly a bit tired. In Florida, with few hills, it ran with the pack and ran cool. That was all I wanted. It was years later during the rebuild of another T engine where I learned of such things as an "off-center timing cover". I checked my '13. It was off center. It ran so well and still does to this day, that I decided to leave well enough alone, as I prefer to spend my time at my lathe or mill, over fixing things that have little influence on it's running (on my tired engine).

As others have pointed out, your timer appears to be dry as a bone which has resulted in premature wear to the roller and contacts ring. Timers need to be lubricated fairly often with oil or thin grease to prevent this wear.

In the 52 years I have owned my 1926 Model T coupe, I have tried virtually every type of timer on the market and have recently come back to the original roller type timer which I prefer above all others. I mixed a very thin concoction of grease using a can of 3 in One oil and Vaseline which I spread on the contact ring and roller and my T has never run better. With my mixture, I don’t believe I will need to oil as often but that remains to be seen. Either way it provides a great lubrication without affecting the electrical current passing between the contacts and roller and also prevents wear to the roller and contacts ring. One must be very careful as to which lubricants to use, for some contain ingredients that are electrically conductive, which could bridge the gaps between the contacts causing all of the contacts to fire off together and cause havoc to your electrical system. Vaseline and 3 in One oil are not conductive.

I suggest you get a new roller type timer and keep it lubricated with a simple, not conductive lubricant. I’m sure it will run much better. Jim Patrick