I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

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Rata Road
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I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by Rata Road » Wed May 18, 2022 3:23 am

[attachment=0]DSCN2754.JPG[/attachment]download/file.php?mode=view&id=129305

Bit of white metal I guess.

Still running....
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Humblej
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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by Humblej » Wed May 18, 2022 5:15 am

What is it like when you rub it between your fingers? Hard, or mushy? Silver when washed or black all the way thru?


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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 18, 2022 5:57 am

If you have lumps of white metal (babbit) that large in the pan, I'd think you'd have one or more bearings completely destroyed. That looks more like lumps of carbon to me. The oil residue looks very thick and black. Thick layers of carbon can form on the underside of the piston crowns under some operating conditions, and chunks of it can dislodge and fall into the pan. Washing the lumps in clean solvent and then crushing them on a clean hard surface will reveal what they are. Carbon lumps will be black and crumbly all the way through, while white metal will have a distinctly metallic appearance and will be malleable. Running dirty oil or poor quality oil can contribute to carbon accumulation, as can chronic late timing, poor fuel quality, and chronic overheating.

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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by Rata Road » Wed May 18, 2022 5:21 pm

Thanks guys.
I found this several months ago and by memory the lumps were hard but I kept a sample so will try and clean it up and post my findings.
Motor hasn't been neglected in my ownership, oil has never got old, never over heated or ran with timing not set correctly but can't speak for the previous owner (deceased) so could have built up over years.
The bottom end is pretty noisy (that's why I took the pan off), tightened up the bearing caps and she is still running but maybe one day it will need a doctor.

Thanks

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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by Rata Road » Thu May 19, 2022 4:36 am

Jeff you may be correct. I crushed the bits I had left and they crushed up to dust so perhaps its carbon.

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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Thu May 19, 2022 8:23 am

I have found similar carbon clumps before. Just check everything over and put some fresh oil back in, shouldn’t be a problem.


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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu May 19, 2022 8:46 am

That's carbon. I would suspect that it formed as a result of poor maintenence and/or poor quality oil, perhaps aggravated by overheating. It's likely that the underside of the piston crowns are caked with it. It's possible that areas around the exhaust ports behind the valve covers also accumulated some heavy deposits. The heaviest deposits will be in areas that normally run hottest, where the hard, baked-on carbon forms, and in areas where detrached loose chunks accumulated. I would remove the pan cover and clean as much debris out of the gutter around the cover opening as I could reach, and I I would install a transmission cover screen. I would then add 2 1/2 US quarts of 10W30 detergent motor oil and 1 US quart of Marvel Mystery Oil. I would then drive the car at moderate speeds for trips of 10-15 miles or so. Avoid high speeds and hard pulls in any gear. After the first trip, I'd check the transmission cover screen for debris and clean as necessary, and I'd check it often afterward, and I'd keep the oil level up. If the screen has sigfnificant amounts of debris, I'd also remove the pan cover and clean that area. If the oil quickly becomes black and thickens, I'd change it again, and again remove the pan cover and check for loose debris. (The alternative to these laborous, but inexpensive procedures would be to remove the engine for cleaning and inspection, and likely overhaul) Running the car for 10-15 miles, then immediately draining the oil into a clean container may help remove additional debris that reaches the pan sump. Let the oil settle overnight, then pour it throuugh a screen and replace it in the engine , if it's reasonabley clean. The idea is to get as much loose debris out of the engine as possible. A clogged oil pipe is another concern. See the Ford manual for cleaning procedure.


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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by Norman Kling » Thu May 19, 2022 10:50 am

This is just a guess. Someone else who has more experience with this might confirm. Many years ago I was told that in an old engine which has been continually run on non-detergent oil the sludge builds up on the parts and if you don't know what kind of oil has been used since the engine was last rebuilt, to use non-detergent oil. The reason they give is that the detergent oil will loosen up sludge deposits and suspend it in the oil. With the splash oil system and dippers in the crankcase, and no oil filter, those deposits will get in the oil and settle in places such as the dips or in the bottom of the crankcase where it will be thrown around and can even block the oil pipe inside the engine.
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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu May 19, 2022 10:59 am

Pretty normal on an old engine. That stuff generally forms on the inside of the piston and then breaks off and goes everywhere. When I buy a car, I pull the pan like you did and then wipe everything down with a bunch of shop rags...everything I can reach, with special attention to horizontal areas like where the horseshoe(s) fit. The crud you pull out will amaze you. One of several benefits is that future oil changes don't go black instantly and you may find the oil stays clean a lot longer. You'll be a lot less likely to plug or slow down the oil feeds to mains and everywhere else without those black clumps accumulating everywhere....it's just burnt/carbon

somehow I missed Pat's assessment...it is right on, and my info is simply a repeat
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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu May 19, 2022 2:34 pm

I would use detergent oil in this engine, as well as MMO. It's clear that the engine is filthy inside, and it's clear that the caked carbon is already detaching and settling in the pan. The best you can do, short of an overhaul, is to remove what loose debris you can reach, then take advantage of detergent-dispersant oil and a mild de-gumming additive, like MMO, and run the engine at moderate speeds and loads while keeping a close check on oil level and condition. A transmission cover screen accessory can catch a lot of loose debris, and I'd strongly recommend adding one and checking it frequently. Running the engine with any type of oil is going to tend to loosen old carbon and gum. Detergent oil and quality additives will tend to keep debris particles small and prevent them from sticking to gummed surfaces, while also acting to slowly dissolve larger particles and gum and prevent the loose particles from clotting. These properties act to slowly remove existing deposits and prevent new ones, while reducing the chance that existing debris and gum will cause problems. Gum and debris in suspension can be controlled by frequent oil changes. If the drained oil is not thickened, but it carries carbon particles, it can be strained and re-used a time or two. Oil that is thickened is full of gum and/or fine particles of carbon and soot, and should be recycled and replaced with fresh oil.


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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by speedytinc » Thu May 19, 2022 2:52 pm

FWIW.
An old boy told me to not run detergent oil in an old motor. (well known local model T guru) The detergent loosens the old gunk & suspends it in the oil. By staying with non detergent oil, the old junk stays put in the bottom catch spots. After a rebuild, then run detergent oil from then on with frequent oil changes.


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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu May 19, 2022 3:02 pm

My dad got the same advice from the guy who built his engine in 1973. That was the prevailing wisdom of ALL the experts back then. Fast forward to when reality sets in...After around 20 years, and only about 4000 miles on the engine, even with oil changes religiously every 6 months, he burned a rod. Hey, it happens...But, pulling the pan showed that the goop did indeed stay in the dips...it resembled chocolate pudding and allowed very little liquid oil to accumulate. It started to accumulate in the dips, continued from there and finally culminated in about a 1/2" thick layer of glop covering the entire cover. There was very little left of the mechanicals in that engine that were worth salvaging and it was an incredibly expensive lesson for him.

Interestingly at every oil change, the oil ran out like water with no hint of sludge. Unfortunately, everything that did NOT run out turned to goop.

After seeing that, my process has to always pull the pan on a "new" T, wipe everything down very thoroughly with rags, refill with modern oil and never look back. My experience with this has led to zero tears, unlike my dad's experience.
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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu May 19, 2022 3:14 pm

I've used detergent oils and additives like Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil over many years in many old, heavily-sludged engines with good results. I've never had a problem doing it. I've definitely solved some problems doing it. I've used it in engines that had no oil filter, engines that had a partial flow filter, and engines that had full flow filters, dipper rods, and full pressure systems. Detergent oil is designed to prevent deposits, and very slowly dissolve any existing deposits, and keep dissolved gum, sludge, and carbon fines in suspension, which allows them to be carried to the filter, if any, or removed when the oil is drained. I find that the detergent oils, and the additives mentioned, perform as intended. I would not use a harsh solvent, like B-12 Chemtool, in the crankcase of a sludged engine. It's a good product with many uses, but using it in a dirty crankcase might loosen too much crud too fast and lead to problems. It can also damage old seals and gaskets, and it will evaporate quickly in a hot engine, which may allow gum and soot to re-deposit on engine surfaces.


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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by speedytinc » Thu May 19, 2022 3:46 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 3:02 pm
My dad got the same advice from the guy who built his engine in 1973. That was the prevailing wisdom of ALL the experts back then. Fast forward to when reality sets in...After around 20 years, and only about 4000 miles on the engine, even with oil changes religiously every 6 months, he burned a rod. Hey, it happens...But, pulling the pan showed that the goop did indeed stay in the dips...it resembled chocolate pudding and allowed very little liquid oil to accumulate. It started to accumulate in the dips, continued from there and finally culminated in about a 1/2" thick layer of glop covering the entire cover. There was very little left of the mechanicals in that engine that were worth salvaging and it was an incredibly expensive lesson for him.

Interestingly at every oil change, the oil ran out like water with no hint of sludge. Unfortunately, everything that did NOT run out turned to goop.

After seeing that, my process has to always pull the pan on a "new" T, wipe everything down very thoroughly with rags, refill with modern oil and never look back. My experience with this has led to zero tears, unlike my dad's experience.
Its a very good idea to pull the dip cover & remove as much sludge as possible. All of the interior surfaces are still coated with that waxy sludge.
(we're talking about long Not of service barn find type T's, not motors that have been apart in the last 30-40 years.) The concern was detergent oil melts this stuff back into the new oil. Is this critical? I dont know. If the new oil is not breaking off chunks, no harm. It will cause the new oil to get dirty faster, but oil is cheap. I have no problem increasing oil change intervals by the color of the oil.


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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu May 19, 2022 4:14 pm

All engines put soot and varnish and moisture into the oil. Ambient dust and wear particles also collect in oil. You can use the engine as a trap for this stuff, or you can use detergent oil and keep the stuff cleaned out of the engine by the changing the oil and filter, if any, regularly. Engines which have been abused and neglected can accumulate amazing quantities of sludge, rust, crusty carbon, and grey goo. I've had good results reducing crankcase sludge and carbon deposits in old engines using detergent oils and select additives and common sense.


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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu May 19, 2022 4:18 pm

You want oil that darkens with use, even in a brand new engine. If your oil isn't getting darker as miles pile up, your engine is getting dirty inside, or if it is already dirty inside, your oil is allowing yet more crud to accumulate while doing nothing to alleviate the existing crud problem.


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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu May 19, 2022 4:24 pm

In the days before detergent/dispersant oils, many car makers, including Ford, used to recommend periodically flushing the crank case with kerosene or a mixture of kerosene and motor oil. The idea was to loosen and flush out deposits. That's a much more radical and dangerous procedure than using modern detergent oil, and less effective. Kerosene won't dissolve carbon. It will dissolve gum and sticky oil, which just frees up the loose carbon particles and chunks to move around the engine and perhaps do harm.


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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu May 19, 2022 4:36 pm

Yeah, I'd never kerosine flush...just wipe down the crankcase of a just-purchased, no-history T, and keep the oil changed
I think there are some "back-in-the-day" solutions that belong there...back in the day
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Re: I found a few lumps when I dropped the pan

Post by Rata Road » Thu May 19, 2022 5:01 pm

Plenty of interesting feedback guys, thanks.
I worked in a garage after school a long time ago and the mechanics would sometimes use 50/50 Kero & engine oil mix, run the engine on fast idle for 10 mins then drain. I've never done it.

I pulled the pan off my 1930 Triumph Super 7 that I just purchased after I drained the oil. The oil drain out was clean, dipstick oil was also clean but at the end of the drain a large slug started to seep out out?
Below is a pic of what I found so I agree with some of you, pull the pan and clean everything up whenever you buy an old car. Good advice Guys.

Since I have owned this T I've never used detergent oils, it is the first time I have had the pan off, I didn't check the trans screen but I will next time it gets moved to the driving area of my congested garage (after winter so maybe 4 months away).
The only reason I took the pan off was to investigate the bottom end noise that was getting louder.
If you watch this video at the bottom you will see why.
Took caps off, only one shim in all 4 so filed them bit by bit until firm when replaced and would only move sideways with a tap of a hammer.
Done about 5 tanks of gas since with no issues yet.
One day it will need work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj5fkBtJzMI






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