Diagnosing a Starting Problem
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Topic author - Posts: 63
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:49 pm
- First Name: Dave
- Last Name: Barker
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Diagnosing a Starting Problem
So, after a few years in storage, I've been working on getting my 1919 Speedster running.
A few items to bear in mind:
- Rajo overhead Model 30
- Hand crank only
- Texas T distributor with new Champion A-25 plugs
- Carter fuel pump with Holley regulator set at 1.5 lbs pressure; flow test was good
- Stromberg RF carb, no leaks
- half a tank of fresh non-ethanol gas
I'd set the choke, turn on the ignition, crack the throttle and pull it over. I'd get it to fire, and a few times it started but would not keep running for more than 5-8 seconds. Thinking it was a fuel problem, I checked the carb for problems and reset it to exactly where I had it when it had been running before storage. Still nothing. Three year old 6v battery was reading at 6v even, and a little lower with a load-tester, so I put it on a 1 amp charger overnight, and the next morning it started on the first pull! Ran for about 10 minutes, idled down with no problems, fuel pressure remained stable, ammeter showed a small charge, advanced the spark and she smoothed out and ran great. Next day, set everything, pulled it over and started on the 5th pull (normal when cold). Ran great, took her out and ran around the block a few times, again with no problems.
The very next day, tried starting and we're back to firing a few times, but not starting. Checked the battery again, and reading 6v. Thinking perhaps the battery needs replaced, I put in a new 6v battery, put it on the charger overnight to be sure it was up to snuff after sitting on a shelf for a few months. Tried starting it this morning and the same result; will fire, but won't start.
I'm planning to go through the electrical system to look for loose connections, bad ground, etc. Timing is good, compression is good, and the car ran great two days ago, so I'm assuming the fuel flow isn't the problem. That leaves ignition/electrical as the prime culprit. Very frustrating.
If anyone has any insights they'd like to share, I'm very appreciative of any guidance and advice.
Thanks all.
Dave
A few items to bear in mind:
- Rajo overhead Model 30
- Hand crank only
- Texas T distributor with new Champion A-25 plugs
- Carter fuel pump with Holley regulator set at 1.5 lbs pressure; flow test was good
- Stromberg RF carb, no leaks
- half a tank of fresh non-ethanol gas
I'd set the choke, turn on the ignition, crack the throttle and pull it over. I'd get it to fire, and a few times it started but would not keep running for more than 5-8 seconds. Thinking it was a fuel problem, I checked the carb for problems and reset it to exactly where I had it when it had been running before storage. Still nothing. Three year old 6v battery was reading at 6v even, and a little lower with a load-tester, so I put it on a 1 amp charger overnight, and the next morning it started on the first pull! Ran for about 10 minutes, idled down with no problems, fuel pressure remained stable, ammeter showed a small charge, advanced the spark and she smoothed out and ran great. Next day, set everything, pulled it over and started on the 5th pull (normal when cold). Ran great, took her out and ran around the block a few times, again with no problems.
The very next day, tried starting and we're back to firing a few times, but not starting. Checked the battery again, and reading 6v. Thinking perhaps the battery needs replaced, I put in a new 6v battery, put it on the charger overnight to be sure it was up to snuff after sitting on a shelf for a few months. Tried starting it this morning and the same result; will fire, but won't start.
I'm planning to go through the electrical system to look for loose connections, bad ground, etc. Timing is good, compression is good, and the car ran great two days ago, so I'm assuming the fuel flow isn't the problem. That leaves ignition/electrical as the prime culprit. Very frustrating.
If anyone has any insights they'd like to share, I'm very appreciative of any guidance and advice.
Thanks all.
Dave
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Check battery voltage with ignition on. I had a 6 volt motorcycle battery read 6.2 volts. With 1 coil buzzing it read 1.2 volts. The points ignition would be a similar load. Try starting with the charger on.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Have you polished up the point contacts and checked for proper gap?
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Check the points. They may have light corrosion or a bit of dust or lint between them. Check or replace the condenser. Check internal wiring in distributor for shorts of other issues. The battery voltage should hold 6 volts with a 1 or 2 amp load. A starter, if used, draws a lot of current, and might pull down the battery voltage to 4.5 to 5 volts when operating. I would definitely check wiring, grounds, etc, and make sure the engine is well-grounded to the chassis and battery. Check or replace any fuel filters. Check that the fuel tank vent is open.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
If any oil works its way into the distributor and gets on the points, it will cause problems. If any lubricant from the distibutor cam gets on the points, it will cause problems. If the distributor cam has run without lubricant, the rubbing block on the points that contacts the distibutor cam can wear down rapidly and cause the point gap to close up, with will cause issues, especially when starting.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
No help with the starting issue, but will say that that is an awful lot of engine for that carb.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
I had an issue where the voltage dropped too low @ the coil while cranking. It would start just after I got off the starter switch, when the higher voltage returned to the coil.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Hi Dave,
A very common Bosch problem is the radio suppression resistor in the rotor fails you can have spark at the coil but not distributed to the plugs.
Craig.
A very common Bosch problem is the radio suppression resistor in the rotor fails you can have spark at the coil but not distributed to the plugs.
Craig.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
The RF suppression resistor is probably not needed, and RF suppression plug and coil wires are not normally used on 6 volt systems. Suppression type plug and coil wires can look like new and still have excessive resistance.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Same as rotor.
Craig.
Craig.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
May seem like an overly simple suggestion, but have you tried richening the mixture a bit? There is usually no "one correct setting" for all occasions.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
In my experience, there is never one perfect setting.
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Topic author - Posts: 63
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:49 pm
- First Name: Dave
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Thanks to all for your input. Here's a quick update:
- Battery voltage is good. Checked with a load-tester and only dropped from 6.4v to 6v with a load. Still need to check other wiring connections, but I have power to the fuel pump, horn, lights, ammeter, etc. Cleaned the posts and terminals anyway and reconnected.
- Inside of the distributor was clean; no oil or debris of any kind visible. Checked points and found them at 0.014", which seems a little tight, so polished them a touch and opened them up to 0.017" (Texas T installation instructions recommend 0.015" - 0.020" points gap). Also cleaned the contacts on the rotor and inside the cap, as well as the wire contacts on the coil and plugs wires.
After all that, I tried it again, and now no fire at all. Pulled plugs and laid them on the head with wires attached and got no spark at the plugs. Removed the cap and saw no spark at the points either. So now it's worse than when I started.
I have a new cap, rotor, condenser, and points coming tomorrow. I'll check connections from the battery forward to make sure everything is clean and tight, but I'm thinking it's likely the condenser; possibly a loose connection in the distributor housing itself.
More updates to follow.
- Battery voltage is good. Checked with a load-tester and only dropped from 6.4v to 6v with a load. Still need to check other wiring connections, but I have power to the fuel pump, horn, lights, ammeter, etc. Cleaned the posts and terminals anyway and reconnected.
- Inside of the distributor was clean; no oil or debris of any kind visible. Checked points and found them at 0.014", which seems a little tight, so polished them a touch and opened them up to 0.017" (Texas T installation instructions recommend 0.015" - 0.020" points gap). Also cleaned the contacts on the rotor and inside the cap, as well as the wire contacts on the coil and plugs wires.
After all that, I tried it again, and now no fire at all. Pulled plugs and laid them on the head with wires attached and got no spark at the plugs. Removed the cap and saw no spark at the points either. So now it's worse than when I started.
I have a new cap, rotor, condenser, and points coming tomorrow. I'll check connections from the battery forward to make sure everything is clean and tight, but I'm thinking it's likely the condenser; possibly a loose connection in the distributor housing itself.
More updates to follow.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Is there a ground wire from the distributor body to the motor or at least the base?
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Topic author - Posts: 63
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:49 pm
- First Name: Dave
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- Location: Fairport, New York
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Another update: I replaced the cap, rotor, condenser, and points (set at 0.015"). Coil tested good. Plenty of battery. Tested continuity on all coil and plug wires; all are good. Put it all back together and tried starting (crank only). Got it to fire and run for 2-3 seconds and quit. Got repeated fires, but didn't want to start and keep running. At least I'm back to getting her to fire!
Yes, I do have a ground wire from the dizzy housing to the block. Contacts are clean and tight. I'm at the point that I don't think it's electrical or ignition, with good readings and new parts. No other electrical symptoms to resolve; as far as I can tell, electrical and ignition systems are in good shape.
Next steps will be to recheck fuel flow from the tank to the carb. I'll also see if I can get my hands on a known good carb to eliminate that as a potential problem.
Yes, I do have a ground wire from the dizzy housing to the block. Contacts are clean and tight. I'm at the point that I don't think it's electrical or ignition, with good readings and new parts. No other electrical symptoms to resolve; as far as I can tell, electrical and ignition systems are in good shape.
Next steps will be to recheck fuel flow from the tank to the carb. I'll also see if I can get my hands on a known good carb to eliminate that as a potential problem.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Have you checked the coil that the dizzy is using? If your still not getting any spark don't waste your time looking at a fuel issueDaveBarker wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 8:32 amThanks to all for your input. Here's a quick update:
......
After all that, I tried it again, and now no fire at all. Pulled plugs and laid them on the head with wires attached and got no spark at the plugs. Removed the cap and saw no spark at the points either. So now it's worse than when I started.
...
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Your coil is a long way from your distributor. Is the coil wire metal core? It needs to be. The coil wire and all plug wires need to be copper core.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Hi Dave,
Lets start with some basic tests. Remove the dist. cap, turn the engine until the points are open, remove the coil wire from the Dist. cap, hold it close to a ground, turn the ignition on and short the points with a screwdriver. you should get a strong spark to the ground. If you do then take each plug wire out of the cap, plug it into the coil and do the same with the plug attached to the plug wire and grounded to the engine. Every plug should spark.
If one or more do not swap plugs & wires with ones you know are good. If they all spark good then the coil & wires are OK and the problem is in the Dist. If you don't get a good spark from the coil the issue is in the primary circuit. Power to the coil, coil wire, condenser, coil, wiring or Dist. ground.
Craig.
Lets start with some basic tests. Remove the dist. cap, turn the engine until the points are open, remove the coil wire from the Dist. cap, hold it close to a ground, turn the ignition on and short the points with a screwdriver. you should get a strong spark to the ground. If you do then take each plug wire out of the cap, plug it into the coil and do the same with the plug attached to the plug wire and grounded to the engine. Every plug should spark.
If one or more do not swap plugs & wires with ones you know are good. If they all spark good then the coil & wires are OK and the problem is in the Dist. If you don't get a good spark from the coil the issue is in the primary circuit. Power to the coil, coil wire, condenser, coil, wiring or Dist. ground.
Craig.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
I went through the same problem yesterday with a T that looked like new, but had been stored for two years.
I finally decided the Holly NH carburetor must be bad, so I replaced it with a fresh rebuilt.
The engine promptly started and continued to start easily, after a few rest periods.
I took the carburetor apart and I have never seen that much trash in a float bowl.
I am still puzzled as to what it might be, but it was kind of sticky and looked like instant coffee grounds.
Everything looked good, after an hour or so more in an ultrasonic cleaner.
I will soon reassemble the carb and try it again next week.
Other than wonder, I am still suspecting the internal passages used for low speed may be blocked.
I finally decided the Holly NH carburetor must be bad, so I replaced it with a fresh rebuilt.
The engine promptly started and continued to start easily, after a few rest periods.
I took the carburetor apart and I have never seen that much trash in a float bowl.
I am still puzzled as to what it might be, but it was kind of sticky and looked like instant coffee grounds.
Everything looked good, after an hour or so more in an ultrasonic cleaner.
I will soon reassemble the carb and try it again next week.
Other than wonder, I am still suspecting the internal passages used for low speed may be blocked.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
That stuff is pretty commmon in cast iron carburetors that have been stored. I think it's a combination of rust and gum. The entire system needs to be checked and cleaned as needed. Pot metal and aluminum carburetors can form a hard white crust until similar conditions.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Ran into the same problem a couple months ago, car would run great, nice even idle, nice pick-up, sweet as pie, stop it and try to re start half an hour later just a couple of bangs and puffs but no runnin.
Got fed up and decided to continue the next day, same story, first ran great, later just a couple of bangs and nothing else.
Checked the carb and fuel flow, good, checked coil, wires, plugs, points everything tested fine.
At the end of my wits decided to change the coil first because it was the easyest to replace, never missed a beat again
The other coil still tested good but somehow developed a intermittent break that did or didn't happen at its own accord...
My bet would be on the coil, later i could not find a fault in my coil no matter how i tried but still it was the culprit.
Got fed up and decided to continue the next day, same story, first ran great, later just a couple of bangs and nothing else.
Checked the carb and fuel flow, good, checked coil, wires, plugs, points everything tested fine.
At the end of my wits decided to change the coil first because it was the easyest to replace, never missed a beat again
The other coil still tested good but somehow developed a intermittent break that did or didn't happen at its own accord...
My bet would be on the coil, later i could not find a fault in my coil no matter how i tried but still it was the culprit.
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer !
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
I've encountered a coil that would work fine for days on end. But if you drove for more than 50 miles or so, the engine would stop dead and stay dead until it had sat idle for several hours, after which it would start and run perfectly for another 50 miles or so, or any number of shorter trips. I encountered a car that would run fine until it was warmed up, then it would die when you turned right. It would start right up and run fine until the next right turn. (Dodge, 318 2 bbl, automatic) Several experts had worked on it, and it had many shiney new parts under the hood, but the problem remained. The actual problem was a dented metal fuel line on the suction side of the fuel pump. I was able to diagnose and correct the problem for about 75 cents. The young lady who owned the car declared me a genius.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Don't you just hate them pesky gremlins
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer !
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
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Topic author - Posts: 63
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:49 pm
- First Name: Dave
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Another Update:
So I hadn't tried starting the T since late May. I have a rebuilt OF coming at some point in the future (hopefully in the next few months, but who knows). I had some time this morning and thought I'd try to re-diagnose. I went through the usual process to start it, and on the eight pull of the crank, she started. Thought she'd quit after a few series of fires, but she stayed running. Warmed her up a bit, and drove down the road five miles and back. All good. Pulled into the garage and shut her down. Went back out an hour later; started up on the second pull and ran great.
I'm more convinced than ever this is an intermittent carburation problem. Maybe the float is sticking and I'm getting lucky on occasion. I've replaced all ignition components except the distributor itself (coil, plugs, points, rotor, cap, condenser, plug and coil wires, battery, battery cables, checked the dizzy ground wire and all connections, continuity tests, ohms tests, voltage tests, etc.). I'm convinced the electrical and ignition systems are solid.
I'll keep starting her a few times every day and will keep you posted. Hopefully, whatever the problem is will either give me more clues or work itself out. I had the carb off back in early May, and all looked good. For now (until my rebuilt OF arrives and I can get it installed), I'll keep starting and driving it when I can until weather prevents it.
So I hadn't tried starting the T since late May. I have a rebuilt OF coming at some point in the future (hopefully in the next few months, but who knows). I had some time this morning and thought I'd try to re-diagnose. I went through the usual process to start it, and on the eight pull of the crank, she started. Thought she'd quit after a few series of fires, but she stayed running. Warmed her up a bit, and drove down the road five miles and back. All good. Pulled into the garage and shut her down. Went back out an hour later; started up on the second pull and ran great.
I'm more convinced than ever this is an intermittent carburation problem. Maybe the float is sticking and I'm getting lucky on occasion. I've replaced all ignition components except the distributor itself (coil, plugs, points, rotor, cap, condenser, plug and coil wires, battery, battery cables, checked the dizzy ground wire and all connections, continuity tests, ohms tests, voltage tests, etc.). I'm convinced the electrical and ignition systems are solid.
I'll keep starting her a few times every day and will keep you posted. Hopefully, whatever the problem is will either give me more clues or work itself out. I had the carb off back in early May, and all looked good. For now (until my rebuilt OF arrives and I can get it installed), I'll keep starting and driving it when I can until weather prevents it.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Have you replaced the ignition switch? Is an ignition resistor present? If so, it could be faulty. Either one can test good and yet fail in use. If you had a sticking float or sticking float needle caused by gum or corrosion, it may have resolved itself. A bit of loose debris in the carburetor can be drawn into a tight space and act like a check valve. It might act up several tiimes in a row, then not cause trouble for some time, then begin acting up again.
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
Starting & then dying sounds like a fuel issue. I’m on my phone so haven’t read all your attempts. Is the fuel in the line fresh, fuel pump pumping, carb float working
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Diagnosing a Starting Problem
This may be a silly suggestion, but have you inspected the carburetor throttle shaft? If it's loose, the hole may be wallowed out and sucking more air than fuel.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring