MTFCA Forum

Did Ford design the 1908 Model T with two fuel tanks?

Looking over the forum discussion recent on what to use for fuel in the model t, I found some other comments on fueling the car and found this.

https://www.fuelfreedom.org/tag/model-t/

Throwback Thursday: Henry Ford, alcohol-fuel visionary

"Ford’s Model T, introduced in 1908, could run just as well on alcohol fuels as on traditional gasoline. The driver could easily switch from one fuel to the other simply by turning a brass knob to the right of the steering column. This turned a screw in the carburetor, allowing either more or less fuel to enter the engine and mix with air. Alcohol fuel doesn’t contain as much energy as gasoline, so more of it needs to be injected to run the engine as well.

As David Blume, another PUMP star, shows in this video, drivers needed to switch between fuels because they wouldn’t know which fuel source would be available when they were out on a drive."


Or is this some one who saw a tractor with duel kerosene and gasoline tanks?

One reason why the T had a problem running on alcohol back in 1908, was the carburetor float was cork and sealed with shellac which dissolves in alcohol resulting in the float sinking.

too bad it's after lunch, there's a lot of baloney there...this stuff comes around about every 2 years with lots of bogus, erroneous or outright fantasy spread for who-knows-why on the internet. A mixture of truth, a smattering of wishful thinking, mixed thoroughly by know-nothing green reporters and viola! a sustainable internal combustion car!

just turn a lever on a 1908 T and it will run "just as well" on alcohol? I don't think so

Henry Ford saw (ethyl) alcohol as a fuel as a forward thinking statement (1919 or 1925 depending on your source - isn't the internet a great source for info?). Some auto designers also saw flying cars as being normal transportation by the 1950's, too. Still waiting for both...(assuming methanol-powered dragsters are not really practical for getting groceries)

“Power Alcohol: Not yet feasible or necessary in U.S.,” Scientific American, April, 1942". Bummer, I thought "T"s had a lever to turn to make it happen...

I don't look to Hemmings Motor News for my science lessons, but they do a pretty good job of following this information to debunked-territory: https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2017/0 ... el-vehicle

Point me to a single carburetor that came on a T which could utilize alcohol as a fuel and I'll reconsider...in the mean time, I'm going to fry up a baloney sandwich...that made me hungry

In that film clip shows what I think is a very poor choice by the Ford company to represent a period icon like the Model T.

Been Here Before wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 6:03 pm

The driver could easily switch from one fuel to the other simply by turning a brass knob to the right of the steering column. This turned a screw in the carburetor, allowing either more or less fuel to enter the engine and mix with air. Alcohol fuel doesn’t contain as much energy as gasoline, so more of it needs to be injected to run the engine as well.

The wording of that could give the impression of being able to switch between two separate fuel supplies, but the "brass knob" is just the mixture knob on the dash, which all T's were equipped with. It might need to be adjusted if someone did use other fuels. The only way to switch between fuels (in a standard Model T) is to empty the tank and fill it with the alternative.
Alternative fuels for the T seem to be a popular part of its mythology, often brought up by various automotive journalists whose knowledge of the Model T does not go beyond the superficial. There's plenty of stories about where alternative fuels were used to get a car home; cleaning fluid, alcohol, kerosene, etc., but the T was never designed for daily driving with them.

Kerry wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 6:47 pm

In that film clip shows what I think is a very poor choice by the Ford company to represent a period icon like the Model T.

They could have at least chosen one with a Ford ignition system instead of an aftermarket distributor.

You could run a T on straight ethanol. Starting it might be a challenge, and you would need to richen the mixture substantially over a gasoline setting. Power would be reduced. You might have to use the choke to get it to idle, unless you used a careb with an adjustable idle circuit or drilled out the T idle circuit. Fuel economy would be extremely poor. But you could do it. There used to be some gas production around here, and the operators would keep drums of ethanol or methanol around field compressor units. The alcohol was injected into flow lines to prevent chokes from freezing and to prevent field lines from freezing in winter. You could get an early 1970s Chevrolet V8 to run on it, sort of. I'd put a gallon or so of it in a drum of "drip" gasoline to prevent issues with water in the gasoline. No one in their right mind would choose it over gasoline. An engine with very high compression would run OK on straight ethanol, once warmed up, but you'd need big carburetor jets and you'd need a lot of ethanol, due to the poor mileage. Ethanol behaves a lot like kerosene when used as a motor fuel, except that ethanol does not have the low octane and carbon deposition issues that kerosene does, and it has a much lower BTU content than kerosene. By the way, the exhaust fumes from an engine running on straight ethanol are HORRID! (Aldehydes) If you want to try running a T on ethanol, go to the liquor store and buy a couple of gallons of Everclear, or run off some moonshine and distill it to 200 proof. Drain your fuel system completely and pour in the ethanol. Fire it up and away you go... carb needle open a couple of turns, maybe three, and the choke pulled halfway out. Polar bears will applaud you. I have run a 1930 John Deere stationary engine with a low tension magneto on rubbing alcohol. (70% isopropyl alcohol, 30% water) It's do-able, but I do not recommend it. A hot spot manifold would be helpful to run a T on alcohol, diesel, or ethanol. But gasoline is so much better, and so much cheaper.

May, 1906:
December 1906:
My guess has been that ethanol was a “consistent” commodity compared with the different mixtures of gasoline. I believe gasoline was also rising in cost, due to demand out stripping production along with the monopolies of the time.

I believe new oil field discoveries and splitting up Standard Oil may have tabled ethanol promotion at the time (memory?).

Anyway, there is little that’s new, just reinvention.

You can try running ethanol in your car. I urge you to do so. You will be disappointed, but you will be enlightened. Just don't tell anyone what you're up to, or the Standard Oil thugs will come and take you away, and you'll wind up in the same cold, dark, dirty, windowless cell up in the Canadian North woods they put Dr. Pogue in.

Most race car drivers prefer fuel that is methanol- or ethanol-based, and the reason is simple, really. Overall, alcohol-based fuel has a high octane rating which increases fuel efficiency. Methanol burns cleaner and cooler, is less flammable, and less expensive than gasoline
Why
High Compression heads, no not Model T high compression, The autoignition temperature, the minimum temperature at which the material ignites without a flame or spark present, however, is higher for methanol than ethanol.

DO NOT FORGET! The "gasoline" they were comparing alcohol to in those tests circa 1907? Was about 40 octane! And only slightly better fuel than the kerosene of the day.
Even the garbage gasoline of today is many times better than the gasoline they were comparing at that time. The purified alcohol today is practically the same as what they had.

As a young and fearless guy i raced Speedway motorcycles ( that is the Euro version of Dirttrack ) the bikes ran on pure methanol, it gave huge amounts of torque and horsepower, but in a high compression motor with a carb you could almost stick your hand in.
These bikes gobbled up enormous amounts of the stuff in seconds and you had to keep the motor warm between heats by throwing a blanket over it or they would be really hard to start !
I think a low compression motor like a T could run on ethanol/methanol, but not very well, another problem with these fuels is the dilution of your engine oil, the amount of water in the exhaust gases and residual unburnt fuel will wreck the oil in no time at all, the speedway motors had total loss lubrication for that reason, they just puked the used oil out on the track through the cranck case ventilation (no one talked about the environment those days)

In Brazil they used to run most cars on alcohol, before they discovered oil there, it was made from sugarcane, Volkswagen had a huge factory there and the beetles and busses they sold were adapted to run on alcohol from the factory, no problems there but the cars did have higher compression, different carbs and poor fuel consumption compared to the gasoline versions.

As Rob's articles say in 1906, running on alcohol was never the problem, like today the closest for the modern car to be safe is a 85% blend because pure alcohol burns with a non luminous flame, imagine the risks back then as a fuel, I'm sure many found out the hard way!

As far as I know, Ford never supplied Model Ts with dual fuel tanks, at least to the USA market. Ford designed the Fordson tractor to operate on kerosene and similar fuels, and supplied a dual tank arrangement to facilitate starting and warm-up. I don't think ethanol ever was used in tractors, probably due to its very low BTU content and other disadvantages as compared to gasoline and kerosene. I have no doubt that many T owners adpated Model Ts to operate on crude oil, alcohol, kerosene, naptha, wood gas, or whatever they could find, especially during WWI, the Depression, and WWII. The fact remains that gasoline is what Model Ts were designed to run on, and they will run best on gasoline, even low quality gasoline. Alcohol was, and is, a very poor fuel for motor vehicles, and in most places, including the USA, it is far from cheap. Most people apparently do not understand what octane rating is about, or why it is important in some motor fuel applications, and nearly irrelevant in others. A good fuel for gasoline engines has a sufficiently high octane equivalency rating to prevent detonation under normal operating conditions, and it also has a high BTU content, among other important characteristics. Alcohol does have a good octane equivalency, but it has very poor scores on BTU content, stability, and several other important factors, including cost. It's a poor excuse for a motor fuel for on-road vehicles. It might make sense, on a limited basis, for some situations in some countries, like Brazil. Even there, it's a poor second choice for most people. It makes no sense at all to use it as motor fuel in most parts of the world, and it makes no sense at all to use it in the USA. The USA cannnot produce sugar cane on anything like the scale that Brazil can, and using heavily-subsidized corn to produce heavily-subsidized ethanol in the USA is beyond absurd, especially in a hungry world.

RE: "I raced Speedway motorcycles ( that is the Euro version of Dirttrack ) the bikes ran on pure methanol, it gave huge amounts of torque and horsepower, but in a high compression motor with a carb you could almost stick your hand in.
These bikes gobbled up enormous amounts of the stuff in seconds and you had to keep the motor warm between heats by throwing a blanket over it or they would be really hard to start !" //////// Yep.

The question: Did Ford design the 1908 Model T with two fuel tanks?

The answer(s): 1. Alcohol was available pre1908 and later.

2. The 1908 Model T Ford had a single fuel tank at production.

3. The thingy on the dash was to adjust fuel flow not change from gasoline to alcohol.

4. From the view point of those who are on the internet, the Model T is a mystery machine, more complicated than one was lead to believe.

5. The response to this question has many many answers.

Honestly, the answer to the question: "Did Ford design the 1908 Model T with two fuel tanks?" is singular and simple..."No"

That's probably what I should have posted originally as opposed to what I did.

Of course, the Ford car never needed four coils to run. However, Big Coil, in alliance with the National Beer, Wine, and Spirits Board and Standard Oil, which supplied bitumun to Big Coil, with some help from the entrenched boxwood interests, forced Ford to add the extra coils in order to sell more alcohol, tar, and boxwood to the growing legions of automobilists at inflated prices. The "trembler" type coil facilitated starting the engine on alcohol, or so it was said. Later on, the NBW&S board managed to push through "Prohibition", which accellerated potable alcohol prices and sales beyond anything previously dreamed of, and "bootleg" brewers worked overtime to supply the exploding potable alcohol demand. The BW&S folks were reduced to producing "near beer" and malted "health tonics". Ford began buying coils from the notorious oil-filled coil people, and Standard Oil began the hard work of poisoning their customer base with leaded fuel. Had not Ralph Nader heroically intervened, we'd all have been dead by 1978.

Does anyone know the octane rating of lacquer thinner?
It's nice to see all the responses.
Always something new.

I don't think lacquer thinner has a specific formula, but common ingredients are acetone, butyl acetate, methyl ethyl ketone, toluene, and xylene. A lacquer thinner may contain one or more of these substances. Xylene and toluene have a fairly high octane rating, and I suspect that the others listed do also. I'd be leery of putting lacquer thinner in fuel, however, B-12 Chemtool lists several of these ingredients on the label. Sea Foam isn't as forthcoming. Back when women painted their fingernails instead of getting tattooed, nail polish remover was a hot item. It consisted of acetone with an oil, probably glycerin, and a scent.

The Question: Does anyone know the octane rating of lacquer thinner?

Oh you talking about Banana Oil? Isoamyl acetate

https://www.aftonchemical.com/SBU/Fuels/OctaneAdditives

https://sds.interlinksupply.com/44988_MSDS.pdf

https://patents.google.com/patent/CN106566583A/en

I think that early brake fluid formulations may have contained banana oil.

Banana oil, you learn something new every day !

I reviewed the youtube Ford's 1st Flex Fuel Car the Model T w David Blume. Again.

Two points:

1.Is FMC aware the individual is spreading misinformation about their founders brain child. Yes the T can be operated with alcohol, but that was not the intent of Henry Ford.

2. Now that the video has been posted on the internet, it is a fact the Model Had two fuel tanks - alcohol and gasoline.Ford's 1st Flex Fuel Car the Model T w David Blume Good luck in your arguments with your brotherinlaw.

Paw cooked off a run of 'shine and we was gonna put it in the car and go to town and see a cowboy show and sell mama's eggs and butter but then paw drank it all and so we stuck out here anothr week at least. Mama said if we ever git to town we gonna buy some gas cause paw won't drink that.

TXGOAT2 » Reference see 1892 Medical Journal page 376:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... frontcover

OK George, I bit...I looked at the video, straining at gnats to see the extra alcohol fuel tank...

so a guy promoting ethanol as fuel, shows us a 1911 Model T...what a surprise to find that it originally came with a generator, an NH carb and a distributor! Not only that, but by adjusting the spark, you could use alcohol and run the car at "race car levels", to boot. He never showed the second tank that you're certain is there, and that was a disappointment, for sure, but boy did I learn things about early "T"s that I did not know before. I know that I always look to Youtube videos made by people with an agenda, for my facts, too. In fact, just the other day, I learned the earth is flat, and had it proven with science, to boot. The internet is an amazing place.

I must say, that when you head down a rabbit hole, you go with gusto...sadly, a few always go along, too.

You don't really need ethanol to make your T run like a race car. Just put a few ordinary wooden clothespins on the gas line and dump a bottle of Carter's Little Liver Pills in the gas tank. Then put on your motorsickle goggles and strap yourself in, 'cause that car is gonna FLY!

Been Here Before wrote: ↑

Tue May 24, 2022 5:22 pm

The Question: Does anyone know the octane rating of lacquer thinner?

Oh you talking about Banana Oil? Isoamyl acetate
https://www.aftonchemical.com/SBU/Fuels/OctaneAdditives
https://sds.interlinksupply.com/44988_MSDS.pdf
https://patents.google.com/patent/CN106566583A/en

Based on the possible combination of ingredients finding a specific answer may not be recorded.
Lacquer thinner may include a combination of the following solvents: toluene, xylene, methyl ethyl ketone, acetone & butyl acetate
BUT Individually they can boost the Octane ratings (old prices being referenced)

"Both alcohols is mildly corrosive..." - and we gladly drink this in 45% proof