MTFCA Forum

I am now in the process of replacing the wood-to-rim rivets on the second wheel, so far, on our '21 Touring. I did one previously by drilling out the rivets, one at a time, and replacing them with flat head 1/4 inch screws with a flat washer and locking nut. I'm not too happy with the nuts showing in between the spokes but what else could I do? I will eventually do the other two wheels. The one I plan to finish tomorrow, LH front, was a little of a pain to dismount because the replaceable stem is longer than it needs to be, making it difficult to back it out thru the wood felloe and remove the tube. I believe that wood wheels used a #888 stem. Can someone tell me the length of 888 stems? On remounting the tire & tube tomorrow, I'm thinking about trying to put the stem thru the wood and fastening it before I mount the tire. Or, if I had the right tap & die, shortening the stem I now have. I really need the tire fixed in a couple of days so I can move the car. Thanks.

Tommy, with the wheel on the car, and the tube lightly holding its shape in the tyre, the valve stem hole in the wheel at the bottom, just fit BOTH sides of the tyre, containing the tube, with the valve stem through the stem hole in the wheel. Lower the car to hold the tyre/tube assembly in place, making sure BOTH beads are seated in the rim. Then just lever both beads on at the same time. This way it doesn't matter how long the stem is.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.

Thanks, maybe I've been doing it the hard way. I usually do things the hard way. I found that the length of the 888s, according to an old Schrader catalog, is 2 13/16".
And it appears that the threads are a non-standard size that I won't be able to buy taps or dies for.
Thanks again.

If the wood felley is loose in the rim? Simply replacing the rivets may not be adequate!
The wood felley to the rim, and wood felly to the spokes, and spokes to the hub, ALL must be tight for the wheel to last and be safe!
Wood does shrink with age. It can also warp and/or split. Potential serious flaws need to be looked for, and dealt with in ways that WON'T lay in wait to explode at some future unexpected moment.
A sheet metal shim the width and circumference of the felley can help to tighten the wheel and then with new rivets become strong again.

Tom,
Yikes! Loose wood wheels is a life-threatening safety issue. You did not mention why you are taking out the old rivets but replacing them with bolts is not the answer. Deviating from Ford methods and materials is a mistake that may not end well for you or a future owner. Nuts and bolts apply a force in one direction only along the axis of the shaft of the bolt. A rivet swells and shrinks applying a radial force and an axial force. If the bolt will fit into the hole it is already too small a diameter, plus you have the minor diameter of the threads making the bolt even smaller as compared to a rivet. Please reconsider your fix and send your wheels to an experienced wheel builder.

The three rivets are not what holds that wheel together. The steel rim is heat shrunk onto the wooden fellow to be tight. Using bolts or screws to falsely secure a loose wheel is very bad idea. Fix it right

Tommy if your “dead” set intent to use bolts to pull the fellow closer to the rim in an effort to tighten the felloe the collateral effect pulls the felloe away from the individual spokes which could be catastrophic. I have seen people that had “Tight” fellows but the rivets rusted out use grade 8 bolts to do the same type repair but with “Tight” fellows. Others use a total rim shim or use quick poly between the rim and fellow. Most of them are still alive I think. Consider what you really think is best for long term good results. Good luck John

Besides being dangerous to lives and property, wheels in poor condition will have a negative effect on how well the car rides and handles. They can cause a lot of trouble short of collapsing, which they are likely to do, sooner than later.

Looks like the T needs to belong to someone else that can afford to spend 1200-1500 + to fix it right.

Your wheels may be repairable.

Consider this: "A sheet metal shim the width and circumference of the felley can help to tighten the wheel and then with new rivets become strong again."

thom wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:01 pm

Looks like the T needs to belong to someone else that can afford to spend 1200-1500 + to fix it right.

Not necessarily. Give Dave Seiler a call.
He is very reasonable & can shim your wood fellow wheels if the wood is still solid. If not, you were already in line for new wheel wood & didnt know it.

FELLEY ain’t a wurd !

Dropacent wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:33 pm

FELLEY ain’t a wurd !

Thanks Tim!!

I’ve got way too many pet peeves, Timmy! Maybe counseling would help?

Felloe or felloes

I welded up 1/4" holes in a couple of my rims where someone thought that 1/4" carriage bolts would make a better rivet. They are at Calimer's wheel shop now getting new wood felloes & spokes. Darryl

My question is, what are wood felloe wheels doing on a 1921 T? Shouldn't they be steel felloe demountables? Just curious...

Darn, Jerry that’s a great observation, if it been a rattle snake I’d be dead.

non-demountables were still available on open cars, with demountables available as an option...I don't see an issue

in any event, them not being "correct" doesn't solve this fellow's problem (pun not intended)

I wondered about the wood fellow wheels on a 21 too. I didn’t post anything about it and considered it might be what was on it when they acquired the car. Might be a good idea to get some steel fellow demountable wheels. Put a post on the classified section as they do show up occasionally.
Good luck

Tommy

it looks like you made a good 5 years on those wheels after your first question on them...not bad.

feel free to contact me directly via email and I will gladly describe a process that was performed very successfully by a friend, on 4 wheels just like yours

also, waste no time checking the Classifieds and contact Mike Lebsack...he will be able to help you with 1/2 of your problem

The wood wheels and combination of parts on our car have been pondered before. It's a '21 with electric start, oil lamps, and has the wood wheels. I understand that the combination of parts probably didn't "come together" in 1921.

thom wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:01 pm

The wood wheels and combination of parts on our car have been pondered before. It's a '21 with electric start, oil lamps, and has the wood wheels. I understand that the combination of parts probably didn't "come together" in 1921.

Except for the oil lamps with the electric start? That was actually a very common combination throughout the 1920s model Ts, although the numbers of such cars did dwindle every year. Both the "electric package" which included the starter, generator, battery, and all the peripherals needed, and the demountable wheel options, were offered separately on all standard open body model Ts. There are historic records suggesting that either or both of those offerings were coming to an end, but empirical evidence and sales records indicate that both options remained until the last few model Ts left the factory. (I once saw a May 1927 sales receipt showing for the basic car!)

Era photographs often clearly show mid 1920s open cars with no oil sidelamps or any sign of brackets for them, indicating the car had the "electric package". However the photo also clearly showing non-demountable wheels.
Apparently, the occasional inconvenience of a flat tire away from home was a lesser concern than the daily inconvenience of crank starting everywhere one went?

Another curiosity is the steel felloe non-demountable wheel. Letters to dealers indicated that they would be replacing the wooden felloes and that wooden felloes would soon be no longer used. Those era photos however again clearly show that never happened. Wooden felloe wheels continued to be used on lots of open cars! We know a lot of the steel felloe wheels were also used because thousands of them do still exist (although they seem to be hard to find?). Era photos are often difficult to tell for sure what version of wheel a car had. However, quite a few photos can be found showing the steel felloe wheels. Even more show the square wood felloe wheels on later cars.

There have been a few posts explaining how to tighten and rerivet wood fellow wheels. I've done a number of them myself. The basic idea is to tack a wood or metal shim to the outside of the felloes after removal from the rim and hub followed by pressing into a heated rim. I typically use a .012" steel shim. Use punches to align the felloes with the rivet holes. I redrill the holes thru the felloes to accept 1/4 inch shank rivets with the heads machined down to look like the originals. Typically the holes are worn and original size rivets are loose. I buck the rivets by placing the heads on the horn of an anvil and chamfer the inside of the rim 45 degrees to accept the mashed ends. I used to heat the rivet at the rim end but after charring the wood fellow, I'm careful about that.
If you want a step by step approach, email me your phone number and I'll walk you thru the process.

To add to what Richard Gould posted above, my father and I tightened a good set of wheels by shimming the felloes and heating up the rims during the reinstallation process. Over the years, a number of antique car owners in Minnesota have used this method.

I posted a rather long treatise on the forum about 18 years ago with all the details including final truing of the wheels after the rims are reinstalled and prior to installing the rivets. Unfortunately, all the posts during that period have been lost.

However, you can read a summary of what we did here:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/98511.html

Farmer J wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:02 am

The three rivets are not what holds that wheel together. The steel rim is heat shrunk onto the wooden fellow to be tight. Using bolts or screws to falsely secure a loose wheel is very bad idea. Fix it right

I don't think Model T wheels were heat shrunk only the big old wagon wheels. There is some old factory footage of wheels being assembled and they are pressed in to place.