20 horsepower !
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20 horsepower !
Contemplating the relative power of a Model T.
The legendary 20 mule teams pulled ten ton loads of borax c. 1886-89. Could a single Model T have done that job ?
Comparatively, I've got a "toy" John Deere 3005. Its 3cyl. Yanmar diesel is rated at 27 hp. The ZTR lawn mower is rated at 22 hp. I have a feeling Lizzie more than equals their "muscle" but in a different way.
The legendary 20 mule teams pulled ten ton loads of borax c. 1886-89. Could a single Model T have done that job ?
Comparatively, I've got a "toy" John Deere 3005. Its 3cyl. Yanmar diesel is rated at 27 hp. The ZTR lawn mower is rated at 22 hp. I have a feeling Lizzie more than equals their "muscle" but in a different way.
Get a horse !
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Re: 20 horsepower !
HP is important for specific jobs but in my experience having driven many pieces of machinery including bulldozers, semi trucks and farm tractors it’s the transmission that differentiates how much speed or work a given amount of HP can accomplish….
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Re: 20 horsepower !
You could probably do it with a TT truck with a 2,000 lb load on the back and a Ruckstell and a Warford. You might need dual rear wheels. Maybe chains, too. Traction would be an issue. Cooling would also be an issue. A water pump, fan, and custom radiator would probably be needed. You'd want the low axle ratio. Speed? Maybe 2-3 MPH, about what the mules did on the level.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
Old stationary engines with comparatively low HP ratings could do tremendous amounts of brute force work. A Model T engine is a fairly low speed engine, with maximum horsepower around 20 at around 1800 RPM. You would lose some of the horsepower in the transmission and differential, and a little more to other assorted losses. But if you had gearing low enough, and enough traction, you could move the load. I believe you'd need a TT to handle the torque at the axles and on the frame. A Fordson tractor would be a better choice. Better yet, do as the mule skinners did, and as train men still do, and compound the power units. Two TT trucks hitched together could about double the pulling force available at the hitch.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
My TT dump truck has won me a few bets this way. When I was working in the industry, I could chain dumpy up to a full loaded semi weighing in at 80K lbs and pull it, albeit very slowly, up a slight grade. The truck has a Warford and a Ruckstell and the trick would only work when the dump truck was loaded for traction. The left front wheel would leave the ground at times. The point is it doesn’t take a bunch of horsepower to move big weight when that power is applied with enough advantage such as gear reduction or hydraulic force, etc. Same way one person can jack up a heavy truck with a floor Jack. It just happens slowly.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
Horsepower is only one factor here. The other is torque. With electricity, it's like speaking only of voltage and forgetting about amperage.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
“Power” is the ability to exert a given force over a given distance in a given amount of time. One horsepower is defined as being able to exert a force of 550 pounds over a distance of 1 foot in one second (or any combination pounds exerted times feet moved divided by seconds it took to move that distance = 550). I have a strong feeling that one borax mule was more capable than that.
Miles
1924 Touring “Bonnie”
1925 Express Wagon “Clyde”
1924 Touring “Bonnie”
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Re: 20 horsepower !
I read the mules move a 30 ton load. They made a round trip (160 miles x 2 = 320miles) in 20 days. Or 16 miles a day. If the moved for 8 hours that would be 2 mph.
(Also doing a bit more research I found this; https://scvhistory.com/scvhistory/borax1799.htm. Basically it mentions starting at sunrise and gong to sunset to travel 17 miles. It is likely that taking out breakers the horses traveled slower than 2 mph...)
Using the power transmission formula:
Power (hp) = torque (ft-lbs) x speed (rpm) / 5252
You can see adjusting gear ratios allows for higher torque at reduced speed with the same horsepower. One could plug in the 22 engine horsepower, determine the torque at wheels etc...
Or consider a TT moves at 20 mph. It could make the trip 10 times as fast. So if it could move 1.5 tons at that speed then it would be equal. (In this case I am increasing speed using a standard TT, another way would be to discuss a special TT that travelled at 2 mph top speed that could carry 30 tons. Was one maxed?)
If not then we should remember horsepower was determined by what was considered average horse. I believe the 20 mile teams would be above average thus the output in reality was likely 25-30 horsepower. If true the TT truck would be required to move one ton at 20 mph in the same conditions.
Is that a reasonable conclusion?
Matt
(Also doing a bit more research I found this; https://scvhistory.com/scvhistory/borax1799.htm. Basically it mentions starting at sunrise and gong to sunset to travel 17 miles. It is likely that taking out breakers the horses traveled slower than 2 mph...)
Using the power transmission formula:
Power (hp) = torque (ft-lbs) x speed (rpm) / 5252
You can see adjusting gear ratios allows for higher torque at reduced speed with the same horsepower. One could plug in the 22 engine horsepower, determine the torque at wheels etc...
Or consider a TT moves at 20 mph. It could make the trip 10 times as fast. So if it could move 1.5 tons at that speed then it would be equal. (In this case I am increasing speed using a standard TT, another way would be to discuss a special TT that travelled at 2 mph top speed that could carry 30 tons. Was one maxed?)
If not then we should remember horsepower was determined by what was considered average horse. I believe the 20 mile teams would be above average thus the output in reality was likely 25-30 horsepower. If true the TT truck would be required to move one ton at 20 mph in the same conditions.
Is that a reasonable conclusion?
Matt
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Re: 20 horsepower !
Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:41 pmHorsepower is only one factor here. The other is torque. With electricity, it's like speaking only of voltage and forgetting about amperage.
Kinda took the words right outa my keyboard! I was always told torque is more important than horsepower, but I'm no expert and not a mechanic for sure!
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Re: 20 horsepower !
One horsepower is not the same as the energy applied by one horse. James Watt calculated that one average horse could apply 180 lbs of force sustained. The reality is that one horse can apply many times that amount of force for a shorter period of time. I seriously doubt that a Model T could apply the same amount of pulling force as 20 horses/mules for a sustained period of time.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
So this horse that Watt was using to compute horse power...did he describe the breed?
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Re: 20 horsepower !
Without more data on the actual conditions under which the mules operated, the question cannot be answered. If more information was available, it could be determined if a T or TT driveline could be fitted up to move the load under those same conditions, and at what speed compared to the speed achieved by the mules. The engine would have an advantage in that it would not become fatigued, and so it might best the mules over a given distance and set of conditions even if it achieved a lower moving average speed. It would be interesting to know what distance, under what conditions, an average mule team could cover, on average. It's a fact that motor trucks and other internal combustion-powered machinery quickly supplanted both animal traction and steam power in most all applications. When a satisfactory method of coupling an internal combustion engine, or several of them, to a railroad train was developed , the last bastion of steam power fell. The diesel-electric locomotive still dominates. Electric trains? Maybe.... IF a battery or some other method of carrying an energy supply on board, that doesn't weigh more than the train iself, comes along. In the mean time, electric trains will continue to rely on glorified extension cords.... or on-board internal combustion power.
Last edited by TXGOAT2 on Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
I believe that Watt was working to improve the efficiency and power of pumping engines used to remove water from coal mines. That being the case, the "horse power" formula may have been based on the capabilities of a "pit pony", or "Welsh pony".
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Re: 20 horsepower !
A welsh pit pony? So...the 20 hp of a four cylinder ford is not the same as 20 horse power of a 490 chevy of the same year? Interesting.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
"Horsepower" as applied to rating engine power is a concept, not a specific physical force. Horsepower is a mathematical formula that relates the force applied to a load over a distance that load is moved by the force in a particular span of time. Some early stationary steam engines would run at 30 RPM or less, but they provided thousands of foot pounds of torque and one engine could operate a large factory with scores of machines and hundreds of feet of line shafting and thousands of feet of belting. No elephant can outrun a good racehorse, but most any elephant can outpull a race horse. The elephant has lots more power, but less speed than the race horse. The race horse has less power and more speed. The elephant can uproot a large tree, unaided. The horse cannot. A horse can be connected to a winch, and uproot the same tree as the elephant.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
Yep just as I thought...you cant trust manufacture horsepower ratings. For and Chevy horses are different....TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:52 am" No elephant can outrun a good racehorse, but most any elephant can outpull a race horse. The elephant has lots more power, but less speed than the race horse. The race horse has less power and more speed. The elephant can uproot a large tree, unaided. The horse cannot..
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Re: 20 horsepower !
In the case of the T vs the Chevrolet, The engines could have identical horsepower ratings and yet behave quite differently. Fords had a conservative HP rating, and developed peak torque and peak horsepower at fairly low speeds. I don't know the specs on the 490 Chevrolet. Two engines might have identical displacement and horsepower ratings, yet behave very differently. Engine A might have a 2 3/4" bore and a 5 inch stroke and make 20 HP at 2400 RPM. Engine B might have a 3 3/4" bore and 4" stroke make 20 HP at 1800 RPM.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
Horsepower is a formula. Engines can have identical horsepower numbers and yet behave very differently. A low speed engine with a low horsepower rating and high torque will perform well in something like a truck or tractor. It wouldn't be much good in a sports car. A high speed, low torque engine can perform very well in a lightweight sports car or a small airplane, but be nearly useless in something like a truck or a tractor.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
Information on the 490 is scarce. 3.7 X 4" bore/stroke, overhead valve, HP variously given as from 20 to 27 HP. No figures for torque, compression, peak speeds.
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Re: 20 horsepower !
Elephant power now we’re talking!
“Whether you think you can, or think you can’t-you’re right.”
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Re: 20 horsepower !
I believe that the numbers for specs of a Ford T and Chevy 490 are:
Model t - 177 cu/in - 20 hp
Chevy 490 - 171 cu/in - 26 hp
Measured on a dynamometer originally designed for the steam engine or the electric dynamometer.