Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

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George House
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Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by George House » Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:35 pm

I just almost finished restoring my 3rd TT. I bought the chassis on a Bill of Sale and am now preparing to get a Title. The engine serial number is 10,955,119 and the old MTFCA encyclopedia states its a December 1924 engine from Highland Park. I understand that makes it a 1925 model. It has the ‘New and Improved’ engine/tranny style so I’m assuming I should have it titled as a ‘25 year.
Right ??....Titling from a Bill of Sale is fairly easy in Texas...thanks 🇺🇦
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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by Moxie26 » Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:52 pm

George: New & Improved engine/trans style ( 1926 ) was installed approximately after August 1925


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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:41 pm

I have a 1925 engine that I got from a guy with a 1925 TT that he wanted to put a bigger engine in of some sort.

The date that it was made corresponded to 20 July 1925, but it had the 1926 transmission cover with the block drilled for the two bolts and the coil box on top of the engine.

Looking through the records, I discovered that engine change was made on 2 July 1925 and the Ford plant was shut down from 29 July 1925 until 3 August 1925 to upgrade to thee 1926 Model Year vehicles.


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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by Moxie26 » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:53 pm

I'm helping a friend with a 1926 touring, on inspection found 1925 style narrow bands and drum internals and transmission cover on a 1926 style engine block.... never did see the stamped block #
Last edited by Moxie26 on Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by John kuehn » Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:35 pm

Dating a T when it’s close to the next calander year can be guess work as I have a 24 Coupe that falls in the same serial number range as your TT. Over the years it was called both 24 and 25 years going by the inspection receipts my Grandfather kept when I was going through his records when I inherited it. Maybe there is some really noticeable differences in the TT trucks but in the Coupes they look almost identical. Just use the engine number as the date of your TT and that will work.
The only time a T was correct was when it rolled of the assembly line and after that the changes that were made over time probably can’t be completely known. And when it was almost the next year Ford didn’t have a clear cut way to differentiate between the two. Especially when it went to the dealers.


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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by RalphS in NE Oregon » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:03 pm

I have an unrestored, unmolested TT that was built right at the transition period. The book says the last old style engine was 12,218,728 built on July 27, 1925. I have engine #12,229,561 which would indicate built on August 5, 1925, but it has all the features of the old style engine: no block rear bolt holes, old style transmission cover, old style fan, and coil box on the firewall not the engine.
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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:01 pm

George, that serial number dates the engine to the 4-12 shift on Thursday, December 18, 1924. that's well into the 1925 model year. But if it's a 26-27 style engine with two bolt holes in back to attach the hogshead, it must be a later replacement block that was stamped with the number of the original engine. I would go by that number and call the truck a 1925, even with the later style engine.
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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by Humblej » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:49 am

Model year and date of manufacture get overly confused. Most will agree that you have a 1925 model year, which is for the most part identical to a 1924 model year. Your DMV on the other hand wants some simple way to identify the year for title and registration. The simple identification is the engine serial number. There are many published sources for serial number look up with a year of manufacture, that should suffice. You can of course, take Bruces book, pictures, and an expert from your local museum, and the president of MTFCA to your DMV and precede to school the clerk behind the counter as to the finer points between 1924, 1925, and 1926 model year vs year of manufacture. As someone with personal experience buying cars without titles, including an out of state 1924 TT, that for purposes of DMV title and registration, I would strongly suggest calling it a 1924 if they are picky, if they will take your word for the year call it anything you want.

Problem number two, what do you want it listed as for body style on your title and registration. Do not know about other states, but in Michigan there are only a few names for body styles allowed for a new title. Forget about ton truck, coupe, roadster, touring, town car, phaeton, cabriolet, etc. My choices in Michigan are 2 door, 4 door, station wagon, convertible, or pick-up. So my 1924 year of manufacture C-cab Ton Truck without a bed is titled a "Model TT" for model, and "Pick-up" for body style. No fuss, no hassle, no problems, titled in one trip to the DMV. Best of luck and hope it goes well at DMV for you.

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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by George House » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:50 am

Thanks to all for your responses !! Steve made a great deal of sense with his later-on replacement block theory. Probly some former owner tried in vain to keep up with the roadsters and speedsters 😡 , blew up and had a factory replacement block....And as far as the DMV goes I’ll apply my Army learned axiom KISS. Keep it simple stupid. A law enforcement officer will view the serial # and I’ll just show him the 18 Dec.’24 date in the ‘Obscurity’ book. Besides, that’ll make it 1 model year older and should add another $5000 value, huh ?.😜..Thanks again to all !
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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:56 pm

George House wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:35 pm
I just almost finished restoring my 3rd TT. I bought the chassis on a Bill of Sale and am now preparing to get a Title. The engine serial number is 10,955,119 and the old MTFCA encyclopedia states its a December 1924 engine from Highland Park. I understand that makes it a 1925 model. It has the ‘New and Improved’ engine/tranny style so I’m assuming I should have it titled as a ‘25 year.
Right ??....Titling from a Bill of Sale is fairly easy in Texas...thanks 🇺🇦
FROM THE MTFCA Encyclopedia
ENGINE SERIAL NUMBERS
The engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the “engine” NOT the car.

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This subject comes up very often and I don't understand why a car is not dated by the sum of its parts i.e. the model it represents, rather than just relying on its ts engine number. In the end the decision of what year you want to have a Model T appear on a title is more of a personal decision than a DOT one and may affect insurance cost & claims.
Here is the example of much controversy, mainly because there was little documentation, provenance, maintained over the life of the vehicle. Just hearsay evidence. So this "restored" vehicle has been claimed to be an "original" with engine #220. If you accept that the engine is "original" do you accept that the body is also "original" to the car or just and original body or does it matter . If it matters then explain how it meets that criteria.
Attachments
220 xyz.png
220 x.png
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George House
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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by George House » Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:32 pm

Frank, you just need to breathe and reread my 2 entries this thread. I’ve read your paragraph quote years ago and understood the difference between calendar and model years for over half a century. And I recognize my engine serial number that’s not congruent with its later style is not an anomaly. So I credited Steve with his good advice. But “ you don’t understand why a car is not dated by the sum of its parts” ? What’s the difference between a ‘24 C Cab TT and a mid year ‘27 C Cab TT ....other that wheel sizes ? So I have to default to the engine serial # when communicating with DMV.
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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by dykker5502 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:17 pm

Some years ago in the old forums we discussed the stamping of "Made in USA" on the sides of the boss where the engine number was stamped. It was a guy from Sweden that asked. This was something that was stamped on the engines that where to be used at the assemble plants abroad like Copenhagen. Another swedish T'er chimed in that he has a similar engine with a number close to the first. It turned out that I also had an engine from same date which is July 1st 1925 so they are kind of triblings. Someone chimed in a stated that 1. of july 1925 was the first date that the improved engine with the 2 bolt holes and gearbox with broad brakedrum and wide pedals.
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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:45 pm

Then there was also another consideration that was a variation of the norm.

A Ford manufactured in December 1924 and sold in January 1925 would be given a title and registration as a 1924 in some states and a 1925 in other states.

Then too, some states never had titles until years after they quit making Model Ts.

New York State did not title automobiles until 1973 and some states were still later than that to title vehicles.


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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by Moxie26 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:32 pm

Aware that Ford made changes in parts during the year, didn't they have the new next year's cars listed as of October 1st ??? .. or as their norm didn't really stick with that date ?? ..... Where's Mr. McCalley when we need him now...God bless.

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Re: Confirmation of TT Engine Casting Date

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:50 pm

...didn't they have the new next year's cars listed as of October 1st ???

Most years, no. The new Model T went on sale in October 1908 as a 1909 model, but in most years the new model year coincided with the fiscal year that began August 1. Bruce put all this in his encyclopedia.

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