Bye-bye flywheel
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Topic author - Posts: 1934
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
- First Name: Tim
- Last Name: Juhl
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Thumb of Michigan
- MTFCA Number: 50297
- MTFCI Number: 24810
- Board Member Since: 2018
Bye-bye flywheel
When a engine rebuilder starts a conversation saying "I've never seen one this bad" you know it isn't going to be good news. My '17 touring has 5400+ mostly trouble-free miles on it since August of 2019. The engine is strong and the transmission worked smoothly and ran quietly. Reverse was never as smooth as low but it did what I needed it to do.
Two weeks ago I drove to my county's museum complex to give a few rides. Driving to my usual spot I found an obstacle in the way and decided I needed to back up a bit and turn the car around. The grassy yard was a little soft and there was a slight incline. I pressed the reverse pedal but the car wouldn't move. Tried again and this time heard some noises and upon releasing the reverse pedal, the car lurched forward and stalled. I was able to get it started an nursed it home where I started looking for the problem. Things looked normal but acting on the advice of my engine rebuilder, I tightened the reverse band a turn, stepped out and turned the hand crank. When I did so, the car moved forward.... Taking another look at the drums, I found a hairline crack on the reverse drum so the engine was coming out. With the help of friends, we had it out and on a trailer by ten pm that same night.
I took the engine / transmission back to the rebuilder to investigate the problem. When they tore it down, they found that the triple gear pins had apparently loosened with the result that the holes in the flywheel were elongated, rendering it scrap. The triple gears, shaft and reverse drum were junk as well, and I chose to replace them all with new. I also asked them to inspect the engine itself while they had the oil pan off.
Today I picked the engine up. Before loading it on the trailer they ran it on a dyno where it performed and sounded great. The engine inspection showed it to be "like new" so at least I did something right. The rebuilders don't really know what caused my transmission problems. I discussed my driving techniques, etc., but they couldn't see how anything I'd done could have caused this.
Has anyone else had a similar experience? Do you know what caused it? Any operational suggestions?
Two weeks ago I drove to my county's museum complex to give a few rides. Driving to my usual spot I found an obstacle in the way and decided I needed to back up a bit and turn the car around. The grassy yard was a little soft and there was a slight incline. I pressed the reverse pedal but the car wouldn't move. Tried again and this time heard some noises and upon releasing the reverse pedal, the car lurched forward and stalled. I was able to get it started an nursed it home where I started looking for the problem. Things looked normal but acting on the advice of my engine rebuilder, I tightened the reverse band a turn, stepped out and turned the hand crank. When I did so, the car moved forward.... Taking another look at the drums, I found a hairline crack on the reverse drum so the engine was coming out. With the help of friends, we had it out and on a trailer by ten pm that same night.
I took the engine / transmission back to the rebuilder to investigate the problem. When they tore it down, they found that the triple gear pins had apparently loosened with the result that the holes in the flywheel were elongated, rendering it scrap. The triple gears, shaft and reverse drum were junk as well, and I chose to replace them all with new. I also asked them to inspect the engine itself while they had the oil pan off.
Today I picked the engine up. Before loading it on the trailer they ran it on a dyno where it performed and sounded great. The engine inspection showed it to be "like new" so at least I did something right. The rebuilders don't really know what caused my transmission problems. I discussed my driving techniques, etc., but they couldn't see how anything I'd done could have caused this.
Has anyone else had a similar experience? Do you know what caused it? Any operational suggestions?
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
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- First Name: Scott
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Triple gear bushings too tight on the pins as fitted during rebuild
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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- First Name: Dan
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
This may have been the second set of pins for this flywheel. Holes too big for replacement pins. Have seen it before. Dan
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- First Name: Allan
- Last Name: Bennett
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- Location: Gawler, Australia
Re: Bye-bye flywheel
One triple gear bush was obviously too tight a fit and seized on the pin. That may also have been the case on the flogged out one too. If the pins had been replaced at the same time as the bushes, the holes in the flywheel may also have been compromised.
What clearance in the bushes have others found to be satisfactory? Can we speak in pin diameters and bush hole diameters to get around running clearance understandings.
Allan from down under.
What clearance in the bushes have others found to be satisfactory? Can we speak in pin diameters and bush hole diameters to get around running clearance understandings.
Allan from down under.
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Totally agree with Scott's assessment. Not enough clearance between the tripple gear bushings and pins. I have rebuilt many transmissions and have always set them on the loose side of .0025 to .003 running clearance and have never had a pin / bushing failure. .005 to .006 overall clearance on the bushing for those who don't like the term running fit.
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Would an original 1917 flywheel have a Ford script on it?
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- First Name: Steve
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
My 1923 transmission disaster included a broken low drum and a seized triple gear bushing. The flywheel was toast, of course. I don't know whether one failure caused the other, or they were coincidentally simultaneous.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
I also like those on the loose side of recommended. Modern machinists are trained (I took the classes fifty years ago and this was their approach then!) to believe that everything needed to be the most perfect tightest fit that can possibly work to be any good at all. OLD machinery often doesn't like anything too tight. Their cogs and cams like to bounce around a bit and routine messy lubrication needs to work its way in and around loose bushings. I have personally seen a dozen model Ts rebuilt and set up by so-called experts (NOT naming names!) with seized triple gear bushings! I usually find ones plenty good for me to use. In rare cases where I have had new bushings installed? I check them and refit them myself.
My experience with one like yours? Not quite, but almost as bad as yours.
I was doing one of my "resurrection from the jaws of the soil reclaiming an original model T speedster", which meant piecing together a lot of missing parts. The original body was shaping up okay, and the chassis was coming along nicely. I had a correct year engine I wanted to use, but it need a bit more work than I was prepared to do right then.
I had a really tired old T engine (long block), and a used transmission that looked alright. I bolted the two together, put on a pan and hogshead along with newly lined bands, and installed in the chassis. Soon after, the car was unfinished, but running and drivable.
That tired old engine was really tired. The car could do 42 mph all day long, and do just fine. 43 mph, and the blow-by increased enough (blew off and lost TWO oil filler caps!) to make the engine go to a full boil in a couple miles! Hot gasses circling the crankcase inside does heat things up!
The transmission? Was the sweetest, most quiet, smooth moving model T transmission I ever drove or heard! I drove the car that way for about three years, put a couple thousand miles on it. But that blow-by was annoying, so I reworked the proper engine, and fixed it up nice. I had originally intended to leave the entire temporary engine together as a ready spare. But that transmission was SO-O nice! So I pulled the old engine out of the car, and began to split it apart. I had the engine hanging on a chain, removed the hogshead and pan, and prepared to separate the flywheel from the crankshaft. Turned out, the transmission drums were turned just right, a tink, a clunk, and couple clatters, and two triple gear pins fell OUT and landed on the concrete! Along with one gear!
I knew my plans had just changed. I got the transmission apart. Two triple gear pins had seized into their bushings and wore themselves loose from the flywheel. The small shoulders of the pins fell through the worn oversize holes. The worst one was just about half as large as the big hole you showed. One of the bushings and pins came apart on its own. The other one? I never did get it apart, they just fell out as one. The third one chewed up the bushing and inside of the gear.
The low drum had been scored (before I used it with wood bands because the score wouldn't hurt the wood like it would have a woven lining). So by the time I checked everything out? There were only a few parts that were actually any good, mainly, the clutch was okay.
How that mess could have run so nicely is something I may never understand. Maybe all those loose pieces just floated along on faith?
How much longer might it have gone? Don't know. However, in retrospect, I was glad I decided to take it apart and use the transmission and discovered it was junk rather than leave it together to leave me stranded somewhere later in another car.
My experience with one like yours? Not quite, but almost as bad as yours.
I was doing one of my "resurrection from the jaws of the soil reclaiming an original model T speedster", which meant piecing together a lot of missing parts. The original body was shaping up okay, and the chassis was coming along nicely. I had a correct year engine I wanted to use, but it need a bit more work than I was prepared to do right then.
I had a really tired old T engine (long block), and a used transmission that looked alright. I bolted the two together, put on a pan and hogshead along with newly lined bands, and installed in the chassis. Soon after, the car was unfinished, but running and drivable.
That tired old engine was really tired. The car could do 42 mph all day long, and do just fine. 43 mph, and the blow-by increased enough (blew off and lost TWO oil filler caps!) to make the engine go to a full boil in a couple miles! Hot gasses circling the crankcase inside does heat things up!
The transmission? Was the sweetest, most quiet, smooth moving model T transmission I ever drove or heard! I drove the car that way for about three years, put a couple thousand miles on it. But that blow-by was annoying, so I reworked the proper engine, and fixed it up nice. I had originally intended to leave the entire temporary engine together as a ready spare. But that transmission was SO-O nice! So I pulled the old engine out of the car, and began to split it apart. I had the engine hanging on a chain, removed the hogshead and pan, and prepared to separate the flywheel from the crankshaft. Turned out, the transmission drums were turned just right, a tink, a clunk, and couple clatters, and two triple gear pins fell OUT and landed on the concrete! Along with one gear!
I knew my plans had just changed. I got the transmission apart. Two triple gear pins had seized into their bushings and wore themselves loose from the flywheel. The small shoulders of the pins fell through the worn oversize holes. The worst one was just about half as large as the big hole you showed. One of the bushings and pins came apart on its own. The other one? I never did get it apart, they just fell out as one. The third one chewed up the bushing and inside of the gear.
The low drum had been scored (before I used it with wood bands because the score wouldn't hurt the wood like it would have a woven lining). So by the time I checked everything out? There were only a few parts that were actually any good, mainly, the clutch was okay.
How that mess could have run so nicely is something I may never understand. Maybe all those loose pieces just floated along on faith?
How much longer might it have gone? Don't know. However, in retrospect, I was glad I decided to take it apart and use the transmission and discovered it was junk rather than leave it together to leave me stranded somewhere later in another car.
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- Last Name: Bennett
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- Location: Gawler, Australia
Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Thanks Mark. I have always used .005" as the pin to bushing fit, and have had no trouble as yet.
The transmission in my 1917 shooting brake is entirely original. i selected it because it had a virgin ring gear so i could fit a starter later on. The reverse drum was so little used I could still see traces of the original ground surface. I still tore it down to check all the bushings. Those original triple gear bushings were sized .0045" to .005" I balanced the assembly and put it back together as a unit, and it is the nicest T transmission I have ever had the pleasure to drive.
Allan from down under.
The transmission in my 1917 shooting brake is entirely original. i selected it because it had a virgin ring gear so i could fit a starter later on. The reverse drum was so little used I could still see traces of the original ground surface. I still tore it down to check all the bushings. Those original triple gear bushings were sized .0045" to .005" I balanced the assembly and put it back together as a unit, and it is the nicest T transmission I have ever had the pleasure to drive.
Allan from down under.
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Topic author - Posts: 1934
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
- First Name: Tim
- Last Name: Juhl
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Thumb of Michigan
- MTFCA Number: 50297
- MTFCI Number: 24810
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
The guys who put the engine together in 2018 and fixed it for me now are very aware of the need to avoid a too-tight bushing to pin fit and quoted the same clearances that Mark Mentioned. They've been rebuilding Model T engines for decades and this is the first one they've gotten back that was this bad.
All of the suggestions you fella's put forward make sense. I don't think I'll ever know for sure what specifically happened here. Question, is there a good way you can check for developing problems through the opening in the hogshead? I have a transmission filter which gets cleaned at least every oil change so the cover comes off. One thing I noticed this last time was fine brass "dust" and a couple of brass turnings in the filter. I'm guessing if I start to see brass again that there may be a problem with a bushing somewhere in the tranny and inspection is warranted. Comments?
All of the suggestions you fella's put forward make sense. I don't think I'll ever know for sure what specifically happened here. Question, is there a good way you can check for developing problems through the opening in the hogshead? I have a transmission filter which gets cleaned at least every oil change so the cover comes off. One thing I noticed this last time was fine brass "dust" and a couple of brass turnings in the filter. I'm guessing if I start to see brass again that there may be a problem with a bushing somewhere in the tranny and inspection is warranted. Comments?
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
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- Last Name: karvaly
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
"All of the suggestions you fella's put forward make sense. I don't think I'll ever know for sure what specifically happened here. Question, is there a good way you can check for developing problems through the opening in the hogshead? I have a transmission filter which gets cleaned at least every oil change so the cover comes off. One thing I noticed this last time was fine brass "dust" and a couple of brass turnings in the filter. I'm guessing if I start to see brass again that there may be a problem with a bushing somewhere in the tranny and inspection is warranted. Comments?"
The brass dust is a sign. The tripple gears get the most abuse & are going to wear the quickest & fail first. Previous assessments on too tight bushing clearance and/or replaced loose pin clearance causing your failure sound right. Cant tell from your picture, but, the pin hole press can create a crack into that nearest magnet mounting hole. That one spot is the most vulnerable.
When one notices different/louder tripple gear noise, thats a wear issue. One can check the condition of the tripple gear wear/mesh with a large screwdriver thru the HH cover. The key here is to do the repair before the tripple gear problems take out much more expensive parts.( dont ignore increasing noises.)
The brass dust is a sign. The tripple gears get the most abuse & are going to wear the quickest & fail first. Previous assessments on too tight bushing clearance and/or replaced loose pin clearance causing your failure sound right. Cant tell from your picture, but, the pin hole press can create a crack into that nearest magnet mounting hole. That one spot is the most vulnerable.
When one notices different/louder tripple gear noise, thats a wear issue. One can check the condition of the tripple gear wear/mesh with a large screwdriver thru the HH cover. The key here is to do the repair before the tripple gear problems take out much more expensive parts.( dont ignore increasing noises.)
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Topic author - Posts: 1934
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
- First Name: Tim
- Last Name: Juhl
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Thumb of Michigan
- MTFCA Number: 50297
- MTFCI Number: 24810
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Excellent suggestions. Funny thing, maybe I’m going deaf but my transmission was quiet right up to the failure. It was an expensive education for me but I’ve added checking the gears to the list of routine maintenance. I’m also going to take a much closer look at the flywheel and other “remains” to see if there are any more clues to “why” or “how”?
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
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- Last Name: karvaly
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Its a safe bet to blame tight tripple gear bushings. Once they seize they are going to take out the next weakest piece. If the bushings were set tight or locked into the gear, when the pin to bushing fit locks, that bushing to gear cant give in to become the new running surface, which is a common find.
With the 2 tripple bushing surfaces locked, the problem went to a slightly loose pin hole, which probably would not have failed otherwise.
With the 2 tripple bushing surfaces locked, the problem went to a slightly loose pin hole, which probably would not have failed otherwise.
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
That happened to me about 20 years ago.
There were complaints at that time about a different combination of te bushing materials that made them swell when hot and not shrink again when cold.
This one just tore into.
There were complaints at that time about a different combination of te bushing materials that made them swell when hot and not shrink again when cold.
This one just tore into.
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Topic author - Posts: 1934
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
- First Name: Tim
- Last Name: Juhl
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Thumb of Michigan
- MTFCA Number: 50297
- MTFCI Number: 24810
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Bye-bye flywheel
I've heard from others that a few years ago some bushings hit the market that had a different alloy blend that allowed them to expand excessively and lock on the pin as others suggested. That's the most logical explanation I've heard so far. It is obvious to me that the pin was loose and spinning. How else can you explain the damage?
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
If you use the pins from most vendors and don’t polish them the bushings will lock up. The finish is not smooth enough. Look up an old post from Herm. He showed this years ago.
Also check the size of pin in flywheel. As I said, if it already has had pins replaced the new pins will not stay tight in flywheel. Seen it before.
And ball sizing the bushings instead of reaming will make bushings not slip in gear.
Also check the size of pin in flywheel. As I said, if it already has had pins replaced the new pins will not stay tight in flywheel. Seen it before.
And ball sizing the bushings instead of reaming will make bushings not slip in gear.
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Topic author - Posts: 1934
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
- First Name: Tim
- Last Name: Juhl
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Thumb of Michigan
- MTFCA Number: 50297
- MTFCI Number: 24810
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Thanks to all of you who have shared your experiences and observations. I finally found time to drag the damaged triple gears out of the box and look them over more closely. It is obvious that the bushings locked upon the pins. It appears that the gears were spinning on the bushings (and eventually spinning at least two of the pins). I have to wonder just how long this was going on before it failed? All seemed to be fine until I tried to back up a little incline and something let loose.
I never suspected such a thing was a problem with Model T's but from the other postings I see that it is more common than I would have thought. My confidence in the car has dropped a few notches and I suspect I'll be listening very carefully to any new noises the car makes.
I've attached a better photo of the flywheel and the triple gears. Two of the pins spun out, one of the gears game off the bushing which is locked to the pin.
I never suspected such a thing was a problem with Model T's but from the other postings I see that it is more common than I would have thought. My confidence in the car has dropped a few notches and I suspect I'll be listening very carefully to any new noises the car makes.
I've attached a better photo of the flywheel and the triple gears. Two of the pins spun out, one of the gears game off the bushing which is locked to the pin.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
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Topic author - Posts: 1934
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
- First Name: Tim
- Last Name: Juhl
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Thumb of Michigan
- MTFCA Number: 50297
- MTFCI Number: 24810
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Carole King's song "You've got a Friend" applies to the times in the Model T world when you can use some help. A little over two weeks ago the flywheel under discussion above finally gave up the ghost, setting into motion an extraordinary series of events, all aimed at helping me get back on the road. I am truly humbled to have friends who are there when I need them, and wish to acknowledge them here
The list is pretty long but Charlie Volkening and Tom Graham rebuilt my transmission and checked over my engine in record time. Don Booth served as a way-station in getting my engine to the North Country to be rebuilt. Dave Nolting who trusted someone he'd never met enough to ship out a set of new drums before he received my check so that I wouldn't be held back waiting for them. Denny Newman shared his knowledge and advice on a couple of issues that could have developed into additional troubles. Gene Butler has been there for every step of the process as has Brian Dowell who provided much of the tools, expertise and energy to get the job done. Tony Osentoski, Ron Stratton and Wayne Lepola did not hesitate to get greasy and lend a hand where needed.
The result? The engine is back in the car and I am in the process of hooking things back up and getting ready for a road test and further adjustment. Thanks to all who helped, I hope I can be as good a friend to you......
The list is pretty long but Charlie Volkening and Tom Graham rebuilt my transmission and checked over my engine in record time. Don Booth served as a way-station in getting my engine to the North Country to be rebuilt. Dave Nolting who trusted someone he'd never met enough to ship out a set of new drums before he received my check so that I wouldn't be held back waiting for them. Denny Newman shared his knowledge and advice on a couple of issues that could have developed into additional troubles. Gene Butler has been there for every step of the process as has Brian Dowell who provided much of the tools, expertise and energy to get the job done. Tony Osentoski, Ron Stratton and Wayne Lepola did not hesitate to get greasy and lend a hand where needed.
The result? The engine is back in the car and I am in the process of hooking things back up and getting ready for a road test and further adjustment. Thanks to all who helped, I hope I can be as good a friend to you......
Last edited by Oldav8tor on Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Tim,
You had a "dream team" on your side for sure! Happy to see you're nearly back on the road.
You had a "dream team" on your side for sure! Happy to see you're nearly back on the road.
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
I wonder if modern "lead-free" bushings contribute to this problem. I'd think brass with some lead content would be less likely to seize at the Ford spec. Pin hardness and finish could also have an effect. I wouldn't think that the pin becoming loose in the flywheel would cause the bushing to seize, but I suppose it might. Chicken, or egg?
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
... Looks like another reason to avoid winding it out in low.
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Topic author - Posts: 1934
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
- First Name: Tim
- Last Name: Juhl
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- MTFCA Number: 50297
- MTFCI Number: 24810
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Bye-bye flywheel
My triple gear bushings were firmly seized to the pins. I too wonder about the metallurgy of the bushings available today. It's like they expanded with heat and stayed that way, perhaps thru multiple cycles.
The kind of driving I do should be easy on the triple gears - very little stop-and-go, little need to use reverse and long runs at modest speed in high. Quite frankly I am perplexed to understand why this happened. I also suspect that it was probably going on for some time. You'd think that the transmission would have gotten real noisy but until the "final failure" everything seemed fine. You can bet I'll be listening for every little noise now... kinda like when flying a single-engine airplane across a wide expanse of water.... every little noise gets your attention.
The kind of driving I do should be easy on the triple gears - very little stop-and-go, little need to use reverse and long runs at modest speed in high. Quite frankly I am perplexed to understand why this happened. I also suspect that it was probably going on for some time. You'd think that the transmission would have gotten real noisy but until the "final failure" everything seemed fine. You can bet I'll be listening for every little noise now... kinda like when flying a single-engine airplane across a wide expanse of water.... every little noise gets your attention.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
At one time there were two “grades” of triple gear bushings offered. The better grade was made with an alloy that was suppose to be same as Ford. I just noticed that now there is only one.
Also, if you look at some reproduction pins there is no shoulder on them. Not like a Ford pin. Only one source has the shoulder, this is to keep pin from coming through the flywheel.
Also finish on only one pin maker is correct, unless this has changed in last few years.
Also, if you look at some reproduction pins there is no shoulder on them. Not like a Ford pin. Only one source has the shoulder, this is to keep pin from coming through the flywheel.
Also finish on only one pin maker is correct, unless this has changed in last few years.
Last edited by Dan Hatch on Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Might be interesting to check the hardness of each pin. The worst looking one has the corners rolled over, which is really odd. Can't imagine a hardened pin doing that. Wonder if they were through-hardened or case hardened...
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Re: Bye-bye flywheel
Jerry,
When everyone was doubling down about a dozen years ago on what was right and what wasn’t, the late Ralph Ricks and I had an idea. Collect up dozens and dozens of used bushes and pins, have them marked in such a way that further testing would keep them matched, and keep them blind, and then since I had access to 1) a mass spec analizer, 2) had a complete metalography lab, 3) Had techs and apprentices that were drooling to get at old iron in the lab, and 4 I own the former Humber UK tech library on Model T skunk work the Humber did….
The first thing we determined that was true was the John Regan was right all along…less than 10% of the pins were Ford metallurgy! As John stated and warned, through the years it was real common to replace pins with whatever the shop had laying around. So much so that after 100 years, our samples only had 10% genuine Ford parts.
As far as hardness and case, never went that far, only did Rockwell test in the lab.
We never got around to publishing the results…shared a draft with maybe 10 folks for comment and they all took umbrage at something in the findings…and for those who worked with Ralph on things, know that he never doubled down until completely proven 100% otherwise. We never got back to it and then Ralphie got sick.
If I can find it Jerry, I’ll share with you hardness numbers and finishes. At the time we did this we also tossed the (apparently two source) pins and while both satisfied the original print and tolerance, the ones from Don were perfect and super-accurate in any metric checked.
The bushing questions we are stuck with as Z never made it into the SAE system. I’m still waiting for an engineer much smarter that me to explain WHY Ford was so critical on oil groove depth and ‘no sharp corners’ that had AN OFF CENTER Linearly helix to the degrees and seconds call out. I have a hunch why, but my reasoning would be laughable….
When everyone was doubling down about a dozen years ago on what was right and what wasn’t, the late Ralph Ricks and I had an idea. Collect up dozens and dozens of used bushes and pins, have them marked in such a way that further testing would keep them matched, and keep them blind, and then since I had access to 1) a mass spec analizer, 2) had a complete metalography lab, 3) Had techs and apprentices that were drooling to get at old iron in the lab, and 4 I own the former Humber UK tech library on Model T skunk work the Humber did….
The first thing we determined that was true was the John Regan was right all along…less than 10% of the pins were Ford metallurgy! As John stated and warned, through the years it was real common to replace pins with whatever the shop had laying around. So much so that after 100 years, our samples only had 10% genuine Ford parts.
As far as hardness and case, never went that far, only did Rockwell test in the lab.
We never got around to publishing the results…shared a draft with maybe 10 folks for comment and they all took umbrage at something in the findings…and for those who worked with Ralph on things, know that he never doubled down until completely proven 100% otherwise. We never got back to it and then Ralphie got sick.
If I can find it Jerry, I’ll share with you hardness numbers and finishes. At the time we did this we also tossed the (apparently two source) pins and while both satisfied the original print and tolerance, the ones from Don were perfect and super-accurate in any metric checked.
The bushing questions we are stuck with as Z never made it into the SAE system. I’m still waiting for an engineer much smarter that me to explain WHY Ford was so critical on oil groove depth and ‘no sharp corners’ that had AN OFF CENTER Linearly helix to the degrees and seconds call out. I have a hunch why, but my reasoning would be laughable….