MTFCA Forum

I have a question for all the early T owners out there: was it a common problem for very early model T’s (1909,10,11) to have a small turning arc on right hand turns? My 1910 has an original front axle and I’m assuming correct original one piece spindles. Making left hand turns is no issue; in fact the left wheel goes pretty far left. But when making right turns, the one piece spindle arm makes contact with the axle, causing a restriction on how far the right wheel turns, resulting in a shallow turn. This has apparently been an issue for a long time, as both axle and spindle arm have matching wear spots. Was/is this a common problem for the early T’s with one piece spindles? Any input would be helpful!

Thanks,
Bill

Is it possible you have the wrong drag link?

I thought about that, but even if I disconnect the drag link the spindle will only travel as far as the axle will allow. I’ll try and post some pics if I can.

I have never noticed that there was a difference in the right or left turning radius on my '10. The turning radius is poor in either direction. That doesn't mean there isn't a difference but It doesn't seem to be big enough to be noticeable to me. That said, there is no way the spindle arm hits the axle going in either direction on my car. My car is in Florida now so I can't check the pitman arm and tie rod dimensions but I think your issue probably relates to one or both of those components.

Frist check that your front wheel steering toe in setting is correct. Note that the early type tie rod with fixed ball on the right side and the adjustment on the left side uses a different lenght drag link. As I remember the correct drag lenght is about one inch longer than the 1919 to 1925 drag lenght. Also there are differences in the early to later steering pitman arm lengths and offsets. Mis-matched parts can cause the steering to go over center, locking the steering, so your large left turn travel may be a bad thing. Check that the steering is centered in its travel and that both left and right turns have about the same arc.

Here are some pictures I took with my old digital camera; the first is an overhead shot of the troublesome spindle hitting the axle and the other two are self-explanatory. Hopefully, this helps.

I’m starting to think my toe in is off: what should it be?

My wheel turned all the way, arm does not make contact with axel. Your arm may be bent, or you might have 1921 one piece spindles on there not 1910 spindles

I can see where the drag link could cause a difference in movement of the spindles. Also if the adjustment of the tie rod was not made with the pit arm in the proper position or a combination of all these. Pictures help

I think I see your problem. You have the correct fine threaded drag link. I don’t know the correct lenght but your link may need adjustment. Adjust at both ends to leave about same amount of threads showing. This should place your steering pitman arm in the correct position if you have the correct pitman arm.
The 1921 one piece spindles were used with the later 1919-27 under axel wishbone. The 1921 steering arms would have the offset up to clear 1919-27 wishbone.
To get close first set for correct toe in with the drag link disconnected. Next place steering wheel so that the pitman arm is strength down. Adjust drag link to the measured distance between pitman arm and tie rod ball, having about equal adjustment treads showing at both ends of drag link. You should now have a centered steering and about the same turning radius both left and right, and have no binding or over center of steering.

So how can you tell if the one piece spindles are early or 1921?

The 1909-1910 spindles are "fat" The replacement spindels and the 1921 spindles are "thin"

1921 one piece spindles were often modified to fit the 09-10 axles. Check for the measurements, welding evidence and shape of arm and body of spindle. Is your arm curved up or straight? Does it have this offset to allow the wheel to turn wide without hitting axle?

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/2 ... 23188.html?

Posted above link 1910 spindle

I can turn this wide either way with correct spindles not hitting axle.

I think you have the wrong spindles Bill.

Here are a few more pictures of the spindles - they seem to be correct but I'm not certain. What does a "fat" spindle look like? sorry, I don't know why it keeps repeating the first pic!

Looking at these photos, I really don't think I have enough toe-in. I've also included a picture of the pitman arm, which I believe is correct. Again, any advice is always appreciated! I'll measure for toe-in tomorrow and let you know.

Iam not sure but is the spindle arm bent?

Wow, I never noticed that! Sure looks bent; I’ll do some investigating tomorrow when it’s light: good catch!

Bill attached are the 1921 one piece spindles.

Your left spindle looks correct. The right one looks like a made over '21 spindle. To my eyes anyway...

Right being the passenger side?

And thanks for the pictures John! I checked both spindle arms and can’t find any Ford or other markings.

Generally speaking one on the left will have numbers on the bottom, one on the right on top. For some reason the right one will have the numbers that are not as proud, they may be there just covered in paint. Your pitman arm looks long. I’ll try and take pictures of the difference.

I’m willing to say the passenger is bent or the wrong spindle. An original spindle and arm allows total movement and will not hit the axle when attached correctly. Look at how the arm comes off the spindle, it has a set back that allows total movement. The 21 do not.

Top has setback where arm comes out of spindle. The 21 shown on bottom has little to no set back, and the arm will hit axle before full turn is achieved.

I think TPTD nailed it!

Whatever the cause of your issue turns out to be, make absolutely certain your pitman arm cannot go past center once you're finished assembling the front end. If any of the associated parts are not correct, it is possible for the pitman to swing too far in one direction or the other. At the least it can cause your steering angle to reduce once you turn the wheel past a certain point. At the most it can cause the steering to jam up and cause an accident.

Stephen

This may be helpful.

Thank you for all the helpful information and tips - you guys are always there for needed guidance! I checked toe-in, and I'm at a 1/4" difference so I think that's sufficient. After removing both wheels it's apparent that the passenger spindle is indeed a '21 one-piece. The good news is I believe the driver's side is correct! So now what do I do??? I'm fairly certain that those early one-piece spindles are as rare as hen's teeth, so how do I make this work? Any suggestions?

Bill you can contact the early car guy sources to see whom might have an extra passenger side if you want it correct. I have seen the 1921 style straighten and then bent to make them work but that was on a pair and I believe a little grinding was needed also.

You can bend the arm to a workable angle similar to the original spindle. Then you grind out the appropriate amount of indentation to allow a full turning of the wheel. You add some weld buildup to the backside of where you grind out the material for the indentation for added strength. I’ve seen some that had the whole arm removed and relocated to make a more appropriate angle that works. You just need a creative welder that can put some deep structural welds on the modifications to be sure they hold and are safe. Welds can be cleaned up and dressed with flap wheel on a handheld disc grinder. Then you can put your feelers out for a correct spindle and still enjoy the car.

Option 1 Relocate and reweld arm
Option 2 Bend to appropriate angle, grind indentation out, add weld on backside for support

I think the first/best option would be to source a proper spindle... if possible. Place an ad, who knows???

Bill did you have the front axle down to bare steel? People have modified later axles with new ends and have been proven unsafe. Pat

The issue Pat raises is the practice of welding a reproduction 1909-1910 axel end onto a later axel. It can be done properly by a certified welder, but it would have to be tested to see the quality of penetration and depth. Backyard welding often was the culprit for failures in the past. There is a difference in structural welds verses backyard butt welds. Dissimilar metals are an issue too.

Common location for welded axle area hidden under primer.

Yes, it was sandblasted and painted so it’s the real deal.

The 4th picture down of Bill's posting is a fat one. The other of the replacement ones have a taper from the center out. I have an spare 1910 pr I am keeping. I will post a photo. My 1910 T has the correct early ones also.

I believe I’ve found an original one-piece RH spindle from a forum member, so I’ll post a finished project when it’s wrapped up. Thanks again for all the help fellas; much appreciated and much learned! BTW, are ‘21 one-piece spindles worth anything? Mine is in great shape with good threads and bearing surface!

The odd 1921 front end with one-piece spindles is mostly a curiosity. People with a 1921 car equipped with them like to brag about them (I don't blame them, I would if I had one!). They are fairly rare, even in 1921, very few Fords left the factory that way.
The only reason that they are somewhat valuable is that a lot of people on a budget wanting to piece together an early T (people like me?) drive the price of them up. For an early T, they can be made to work with only a little effort. A bit more effort, and they can work fairly well and most people won't know the difference. As you found out, making them work really well is a bit more of a problem.
The "real" early ones are a bit expensive, and for good reasons. Check the one you are getting for cracks! I won't ask what you are paying, or where you got it (unless you or the seller really wants to). But I have seen the 1921 one-piece spindles sell for as much as a couple hundred for a single (don't recall which side?). And, no, I am not buying! I have too many projects already, and do not need to start another pile. If I can get four other projects finished first, the late 1912 project pile I already have will be the earliest one I will consider doing.

Congrats Bill on finding the correct spindle. The last 1921 pair I know of sold for north of $350.