Spoke Replacement, which wheel do I have

[Reno Speedster]

I noticed today that I have some clicking from one of the wood wheels on the 22. Some investigation showed loose spokes on two wheels. My wheels have the metal rings not wood felloes so spoke replacement is not a gargantuan task and I wanted to touch up the paint on the wheels anyway.

In looking at the catalogues I see various options for the spokes. Ford vs Kelsey Hayes being options. But, I don’t know how to tell what wheels I have. Here is a picture of the loose wheel. Can anyone tell me what I have (from the picture) or tell me how to figure it out?

Thanks

[Allan]

For a start, there are no Kelsey Hayes wheels on model T's. The two companies merged post the T era. There are Hayes wheels and Kelsey wheels and they differ. The wheel you show is typical of the loose lug Kelsey wheels we have on our Canadian produced cars. The slot punched in the steel felloe is designed to accept one foot on a U shaped removable lug, the other shorter foot engaging on the rim. US wheels dropped the loose lugs well before Canada did.That rim with the fixed lug is not meant for that wheel. It may be safe to use, but mixing and matching assorted rims/wheels can be less than safe. Some combinations do not work.

On our Canadian sourced cars, the combination of a loose lug felloe with a large brake drum is something I have never seen. There were 23" wheels with large drum brakes, but these were on 25 and later T's, and by then ours had the fixed lug rims and no slots in the felloes, just like US cars.

You may have a Canadian wheel. If this is the case, the hub end of the wheel spokes is different from the US wheels. All spokes taper at the hub end to fit around the hub. On US made wheels the faces between the spokes are square to the face on which the hub and plate impinge. On Canadian Kelsey wheels, the faces between the spokes are angled to make a taper between the spokes. When the wheel is assembled these angles alternate between spokes, one one way round, the next turned 180* . This makes assembly/dis-assembly much easier, as no press is needed. It also results in a tighter assembly.

Photos of all you wheels would help us sort out what you have, and perhaps help you sort out which combinations may be safe. Photos should focus on the the rim bolt/lug area, the cross section of the steel felloe, and the shape of the rim where it fits on the felloe.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.

[Allan]

Morgan, I forgot to mention that Kelsey loose lug wheels have a shallower felloe, so the spokes need to the longer ones. Aussie T restorers have often made the mistake of ordering new spokes from the USA, only to find them too short for our Kelsey wheels.

Allan from down under.

[CudaMan]

The wheel in the pic looks like a Hayes wheel to me, it would take the 1/32 inch longer spokes.

I don't see any cracked or rotted spokes in the picture. If a few spokes are just loose and the vendors don't have any of the longer spokes in stock, you could try shimming the ends of the loose spokes to tighten the wheel up.

You'll need a spoke jack and some shims. I make my shims from 1/32 inch thick stainless steel washers. I cut a slot in one side of the washer so that I can slip in the shim while the spoke jack holds the felloe away from the end of the spoke.

[FundyTides]

I ran into a similar issue when trying to get spokes for my 27 Canadian T with Kelsey wheels. I wasn't able to find spokes from the usual dealers so I took my wheels to Bill Calimer (calimerswheelshop.com) and he made spokes and rebuilt the wheels. He did an excellent job and I would highly recommend him. I know shipping from Alaska would be high but maybe you could contact Bill and see if he can/will make spokes for you or if he needs the wheels. Good luck!

[Reno Speedster]

Thanks for the information. Shims would be a good shot term solution, but I would like to replace the spokes and do the job right.

The large drum is for the rocky mountain brakes. Interesting that the rims are for a different style wheel. I will have to do some research on the wheel types.

My speedster project is based on a 1926 Canadian car and I have the original wood wheels down in Nevada (it has Dayton wires on it now).

Living in Alaska, shipping is an issue. But, if I can’t find the spokes I need, sending the hubs and wheels out would be the way to go.

[RajoRacer]

That is a mis-matched wheel & rim combination Morgan - the wheel was designed to accept the "loose " lug - see those short slots in the felloe ? The correct rim would NOT have the lugs attached as your does. After 100 + years, it's rather difficult to come up with a truly "matched" set of wheels & rims.

[FundyTides]

When I took my tires of the rims, the rims were clearly marked Kelsey Canada on the inside. You might want to take a look at yours to avoid some guesswork.

[TRDxB2]

You may have a mismatch of felloe & rim. If that is a gap between the felloe and rim it would cause clicking and eventually damaged spokes. You need to identify both the manufacturer of the rim and felloe

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There are many invalid combinations

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Identification

Rim_to_Fellow.jpg (32.51 KiB) Viewed 2108 times

[Reno Speedster]

Thanks guys. I am not overly concerned about having the correct rims, I am very concerned about having safe wheels. I took a quick look at my wheels on the way out the door for work and it appears that all my wheels are the Kelsey loose clip stile shown in the original picture. One of the rims is a Kelsey fixed clip, one may be (light was poor I will confirm later). The remaining three are Ford rims.

So as I see it, I could find the correct rims or I could change the steel felloes to the ford style when I rebuild the wheels. I assume that the hubs are interchangeable, but that may not be true. Not sure which of those options would be harder. I do have a bunch of wheels and rims down in Nevada so I might put this off till I see what I have on hand.

[Oldav8tor]

If you take the rim off the felloe, take a look at the tenons where the protrude thru the hole in the felloe. If the nubs look like warts, they may be rotten and although the spoke may look good, it wouldn't take much to break the tenon. The first photo shows a "warty" tenon on the right and what a similar spoke looked like after I gave the spoke a couple of whacks with a hammer. It sheared right off. The second photo shows what they look like new.

I live in Michigan and the nearest wheel shop is in Ohio. For the price of spokes, the cost of having a master wheelwright do the wheels is not that much more, although shipping does add to the cost. To me, safe wheels is not something to skimp on. The aftermath of a wheel folding up can be nasty.

[Reno Speedster]

I plan on replacing the spokes. They are cheap and safety is paramount. The question is how to best do it with what I have. This weekend I will jack up the wheels and tke the rims off to see exactly what I am working with.

[BobShirleyAtlantaTx]

I’m with Frank,miss matched rim and felloe. I don’t think you could ever stretch stretch the felloe that far with spokes. Do the other wheels have this problem? Could you please send some measurements of the rim and felloe

Call me and we’ll chat, if you think I can help Bob @ 903-824-1949

[BobShirleyAtlantaTx]

Google. John Reagan spoke press. John is a great guy, a tremendous asset to us.

[DickC]

Here is my two cents!! You stated that you are not concerned with the mix of Hayes/Ford with Kelsey rims or vice versa. I know that they will not fit and will in a non-concentric way if you force them to fit. You will have a car that will "lope" down the road. That is to say, each wheel will have a different off center as they roll. I had a car that had this issue and it was a very rough ride.

[Reno Speedster]

To be clear, I don’t care if I have the historically incorrect wheels for the car. I do care that the wheels on the car are safe. I have two Kelsey fixed clip rims and three ford rims on the car and four loose clip Kelsey felloes.

I am going to put new spokes in the wheels but there are some questions to be answered first. Can I get the correct Kelsey rims? Will the tires I have fit on them? Can I find the correct Kelsey spokes.

On the other hand, would it be easier/make more sense to get Ford felloes and spokes and rebuild the wheels to fit the rims I have. Based on what I see in my books, there is no difference between the hubs used on the ford and Kelsey wheels.

The second option seems the easiest, but either way I need to find some parts.

[Allan]

Morgan, I see the nub of the issue as the way the rims fit the felloes. Some combinations can be safe, others less so.
The Kelsey loose lug wheels you have take a rim with no lugs, other than a bridging lug over the bolt nearest to the valve stem. This fixed lug is there to prevent the rim sliding around the wheel and tearing out the valve stem. It is NOT a driving lug, although many are worn out of shape when the rim is driven on while loose on the felloe.

Kelsey loose lug rims are designed to wedge firmly on the outer rolled in edge of the felloe. The lugs and bolts are there to maintain this wedging effect, and that is what drives the wheel. On good rims and un-worn felloes, you can pass a credit card between the rim and felloe on the inside of the wheel.

Our Kelsey fixed lug wheels which are fitted to our late 25 T's have a felloe with a wider outwardly rolled edge on the inner side. The fixed lug rims wedge on this wider inner ledge. The four bolts maintain the wedging effect. The lugs stand off the outside face of the felloe, and the credit card will pass between the rim and felloe on the outside ledge, if all the components are not worn.

So, on any set of wheels, all the bolts do is maintain the wedging of the rim on the felloe. Mixing and matching different years and brands needs to keep this in mind.

Your wheel/rim combination shown in your photo shows a significant gap between the rim and the outer edge of the felloe, so no wedging there. With the narrow inside ledge on a Kelsey loose lug felloe, it is not likely wedged there either. Hence all the driving force is taken only on the four rim bolts, making it critical that those bolts be in very good condition and are kept tight at all times.

In summary, any combination of rim/felloe which will allow the two to make the wedge fit, maintained by the four bolts, is the best. Anything else is a compromise, which may work, but not as intended. No doubt there are many cars on the road with mixes, some known, others not, and many of these will work, but may not be as safe as they need o be.

Hope this helps. Be safe.
Allan from down under.

[Scott_Conger]

Allan, in another thread similar to this one, a poster posted the actual Patent Drawing (US1,475,167) of a Kelsey Loose Lug Rim, which contained a detailed drawing of the lug (specifically) and included the designer's description of said "LUG" being a "Driving Lug". With that, you grudgingly agreed that it was CALLED a Driving Lug on the Patent, but wasn't actually a Driving Lug. Perhaps Patents down under are less careful or precise in their descriptions of Dependent and Independent Claims on patents? I don't know about Patents where you live, but having filed a few here in the US, the wording gets thrashed through many times before it passes muster, and is not at all vague or misleading, nor involve colloquialisms or slang when describing features or purpose.

I'll give you this: you are a consistent and stubborn guy when you are on a cause, aren't you? That's an admirable quality for a debater, but in this case, with respect, I think the facts as documented in the patent drawing don't support your argument.

I do support your and others' opinion that the rims need to match the felloes for ride quality and occupant safety

[Allan]

Scott, I don't know much at all about patents of any description. However, fossil evidence of how the Kelsey loose lug wheels work on our cars indicates that the bridging lug over the nearest bolt to the valve stem indicates that that lug takes no drive on an unworn rim/felloe combination. I have loose lug rims with absolutely no wear registered on the lug, as is expected when the rim/felloe wedge is maintained. If the rims get loose, then they can shift on the felloe and the wheel bolt will then engage on the bridging lug. The lugs will wear, and so will the bolt, to the extent that either will fail completely.

And they do get loose. The nuts may loosen. The feet on the loose lugs can then wear, The lands on the rim where the loose lugs engage also wear. This is particularly prevalent with rims which have the rolled in grove in them and the land for the lug penetrates the rim. When any combination of these wear points is reached, the rims/felloes will also wear and may be loose on the felloe and that bridging lug may become a driving lug, on the rear wheels at least.

That bridging lug being defined in the patent as a driving lug is problematical. In practice, it takes no drive when parts are unworn. When they are worn/loose, it is a most unsatisfactory application, relying on the rim being loose on the felloe for it to operate as a driving lug, and then being chewed up in the process.

The later Ford and other designs overcome this problem. The tapered back of the wheel bolt nuts and the tapered land in the fixed lugs securely locates the rim on the felloe, preventing it from migrating around the wheel. In effect, the wheels bolts take on the role of the bridging lug on a loose lug rim. Even with the fixed lugs, the rims are still designed to wedge on the felloe, and this wedging effect is what takes the drive. The four bolts are there to maintain that wedge.

It may be described in the patent as a driving lug, but it in practice, it is not. I have read enough copies of patents for crackpot ideas for all sorts of stuff to know that not every patent sought/granted is a good idea, or is accurate in it's claims of functionality.

Allan from down under.

[Scott_Conger]

Allan

I had no interest in perpetuating this beyond my initial mentioning the patent which clearly disproves your theory(s), but honestly, equating the Kelsey patent and it's specific description with "crackpot ideas", simply because it doesn't comport with your uniquely contrived idea of how things (should) work is a bit much, no?

Sometimes, a Drive Lug is just a Drive Lug. Especially when the designer says it is, and the Patent Examiner agrees with that conclusion.

You're free to disagree with the designers claim(s) and the examiner who accepted the patent, but when you dispute the premise of the patent and claim facts otherwise not found in the patent, you should at least be forthright and mention that fact to the reader seeking information. Claiming the "Drive Lug" as patented, is not a drive lug, you are stating an opinion, not a point of fact.

"Proving" it isn't a drive lug because the bolt doesn't get worn in half during use would be like my claiming that the studs and lug nuts on my F350 are not "driving" my wheels because they do not exhibit wear either.

[Allan]

Scott, what I don't understand is how a lug which makes no contact with the rim in an unworn combination of rim and felloe, can be considered a drive lug when there is no connection. Just because a patentee calls it such does not necessarily make it such. Comparing this to your 350 F truck wheels studs is somewhat dis-ingenuous. A closer comparison would be with fixed lug rims with their tapered nuts and seats.

Allan from down under.