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1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:18 pm
by lirogo27
I had a situation a few weeks ago where the bendix was caught in the fly wheel and could not be dislodged. Concerned about the starter armature being bent, I replaced the starter with a new and fully rebuilt starter. Car starting fine 80-90% of the time since the starter replaced. There have been a few times this weekend where the Bendix became stuck again, and rocking the car, or pushing it while in gear was enough the bendix to dislodge. As the starter arm being bent is hopefully now out of the equation with the new and fully rebuilt starter...what else could it be. Thanks.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:23 pm
by Norman Kling
From your description, I think some of the teeth on the flywheel ring gear are worn causing the starter to stick. If it is, the only way to fix it would be to pull the entire engine and separate the flywheel from the crankshaft and take off the brass bolts holding on the starter ring. Then put them back in and peen to hold it in place. I would also recommend new brass bolts with threads to match the ring gear. It would also be a good time to do any needed repair to the magneto also.
Norm
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:55 pm
by Moxie26
Are the four mounting screws with lock washers tight?.. if loose , the starter Bendix would be at a angle instead of being straight.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:15 pm
by lirogo27
Moxie26 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:55 pm
Are the four mounting screws with lock washers tight?.. if loose , the starter Bendix would be at a angle instead of being straight.
I will check this coming weekend. It is the next time I will be able to.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:16 pm
by lirogo27
Norman Kling wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:23 pm
From your description, I think some of the teeth on the flywheel ring gear are worn causing the starter to stick. If it is, the only way to fix it would be to pull the entire engine and separate the flywheel from the crankshaft and take off the brass bolts holding on the starter ring. Then put them back in and peen to hold it in place. I would also recommend new brass bolts with threads to match the ring gear. It would also be a good time to do any needed repair to the magneto also.
Norm
Norman - the flywheel teeth were examined and counted by two seasoned T folks. MY understanding is they were all there and in great shape. I will re-verify that with both Martynn and Tom.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:15 pm
by Allan
The starter engages the ring gear in two areas, depending on where the engine stops. These two areas take most of the wear when the Bendix assembly does its job. The rest of the ring gear teeth may well be pristine, but when the flywheel spins around to the worn section, the Bendix can end up mistimed and jamming on a damaged tooth. The fact a replacement starter is doing the same thing points to a ring gear problem, not a starter problem.
The good news is a bent starter motor shaft can be straightened. However, that is the lest of your problems if the ring gear does need replacing.
Allan from down under.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:58 pm
by Norman Kling
Since the engine usually stops in one of two places, you can sometimes get by turning the crank about 1/4 turn before engaging the starter. This will line up the gear on a different place. If that works, you can use that method until some time in the future when it is necessary to pull the engine for additional work.
Norm
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:29 am
by lirogo27
Norman - will try that for now. I just want to try to start small and hope that is the issue. I bought the car in March. It was examined by the guys in my local club and we all agreed it was a great option and car. It had been starting until the bendix got caught last month. (We figured it was a bent arm). Yes, it took a few tries to start and that could have been me learning. There were a few thuds in the process. But it started. The person who had the car before me replaced the starter with a rebuilt unit....but I do not know where he got the rebuild from or extent of rebuild. I bought the top end rebuild to avoid any possible further issues.
I am not excluding an engine pull, I would prefer to examine all outcomes first rather than doing that. Would a conversion to aa 12v starter avoid the engine pull?
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:41 am
by John.Zibell
lirogo27 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:29 am
I am not excluding an engine pull, I would prefer to examine all outcomes first rather than doing that. Would a conversion to a 12v starter avoid the engine pull?
Going to 12 volts opens a new set of problems that won't address the starter jamming. The Bendix assembly can't take the shock of 12 volts for long unless you modify the current to the starter.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:24 am
by TXGOAT2
Be sure that the surfaces of the starter and the mounting area on the hogshead are clean and flat. When you step on the starter switch, step straight down on it firmly, and hold it down firmly until the engine starts. A good starter switch and a good battery with full charge and all connections clean and tight will help prevent starter troubles. Be sure to adjust the spark lever properly when starting.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:11 am
by Steve Jelf
One of the popular Model T superstitions is the old wives' tale that you have to convert to 12 volts and "spin fast" for easy and reliable starting. The old wives are full of beans. There are good reasons for using 12 volts, but starting isn't one of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv6HWWOGYA
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:15 am
by J1MGOLDEN
If the Bendix is new, but not recently new, it might be the old problem.
Those 3 little sets of grooves did not go quite far enough and required a Dremel tool with a sharp point to extend them just a little more by widening the end area where the gear stopped when the engine started.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:36 am
by lirogo27
Steve Jelf wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:11 am
One of the popular Model T superstitions is the old wives' tale that you have to convert to 12 volts and "spin fast" for easy and reliable starting. The old wives are full of beans. There are good reasons for using 12 volts, but starting isn't one of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv6HWWOGYA
Ok. Was just trying to figure out a solution without pulling the engine.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:40 am
by lirogo27
J1MGOLDEN wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:15 am
If the Bendix is new, but not recently new, it might be the old problem.
Those 3 little sets of grooves did not go quite far enough and required a Dremel tool with a sharp point to extend them just a little more by widening the end area where the gear stopped when the engine started.
Jim
the bendix is the bendix the car came with. It looked fine, but possibly not? SHould I have switched out the Bendix with the new starter? I know the edges of the bendix head sleeve were a bit rough, but believe Martynn smoothed them out a bit with a file. (part #5021-1/2). Otherwise all aspects of the bendix looked ok. Happy to try a New Bendix if that is possible option. I don't think it is the new starter as I am certain the complete refurbished option is fine and there are no issues with it.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:46 am
by speedytinc
Repo bendix is likely the issue, if your ring gear is good.(as checked ALL the way around) I have no trust in those bendix units. Better off with a rebuilt original unit. In the past, the gears were not made to spec, soft & had rough threads.
Easily Identifiable, as the counter weight & gear are one piece.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:52 pm
by TXGOAT2
By all means, make sure the Bendix is not the problem before doing any major tear down.
Re: 1926 T - Replace 6V starter
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:54 pm
by lirogo27
speedytinc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:46 am
Repo bendix is likely the issue, if your ring gear is good.(as checked ALL the way around) I have no trust in those bendix units. Better off with a rebuilt original unit. In the past, the gears were not made to spec, soft & had rough threads.
Easily Identifiable, as the counter weight & gear are one piece.
Hey John in Orange County thx. I will speak with both Chaffins and Langs to see if they have a rebuilt unit. I can certainly try that route if you folks think it is a high possibility.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:47 pm
by lirogo27
Do you guys place a high probability on it being the actual Bendix? Could Bendix itself possibly have been damaged when it jammed and had to be removed? So basically a bent arm caused the Bendix stick, I replaced the starter and now perhaps because the bendix was damaged I now need to replace the bendix? Let me know. THX.
Sorry for the back and forth. I am checking the thread from work. Lisa
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:34 pm
by TRDxB2
Pictures are better than words. Without them everything rests on assumptions. Bent Bendix????
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:44 pm
by speedytinc
Process of elimination. Ring gear perfect.(every inch looked @ & not mounted backwards.) Starter shaft straight.
Bendix unknown. Pix would help. Have you looked @ the bendix? Is it a true model T bendix or a kinda fits replacement? The front collar is about 1" long & polished smooth.
Is it a 1 piece gear & counter weight? Thats repop & not to be trusted.
Theres a good pix. I dont think its possible to have a bent unit. They are very hard & tough. I have had over a hundred pass thru my hands & never seen a bent one.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:34 pm
by Ed Fuller
You can easily avoid pulling the engine to replace the ring gear by just starting the car with the hand crank.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:12 pm
by lirogo27
speedytinc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:44 pm
Process of elimination. Ring gear perfect.(every inch looked @ & not mounted backwards.) Starter shaft straight.
Bendix unknown. Pix would help. Have you looked @ the bendix? Is it a true model T bendix or a kinda fits replacement? The front collar is about 1" long & polished smooth.
Is it a 1 piece gear & counter weight? Thats repop & not to be trusted.
Theres a good pix. I dont think its possible to have a bent unit. They are very hard & tough. I have had over a hundred pass thru my hands & never seen a bent one.
I agree on the bend and it being very hard to damage. There is a New starter. Fully refurbished from top to bottom. The Bendix was a little tight when sliding it on the shaft upon initial install. Bendix was exactly as your picture above details. The only difference was the head sleeve (5021 - 1/2). There were a few burrs/pits on that part alone that were smoothed out with a file.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:34 pm
by speedytinc
The bendix should slide on easy. onto the 1/2" shaft & also the 1" bushing in the starter snout.
When in all the way it should rotate friction-less.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:46 pm
by Mark Chaffin
Yes. You could go to the more modern 12V WOSP starter as an option. Not original: however, it is a superior unit. Many who want a more reliable starter have switched over and have been very satisfied. The drive gear engages from the opposite side of the ring gear. It is also has a gear reduction drive for added torque. I have been running one for over 10 years without a problem.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:09 pm
by lirogo27
I spoke with Tom on my way home from work. He fully inspected the ring gear and flywheel and saw nothing unusual. No problems with wear, burrs etc. I will take note as to when this is happening....right out of the gate? after trying multiple times to get the car started and so forth. We can try a different Bendix or swap out parts that wear quickly to see, but he said the bendix installed smoothly and glided perfectly when he tested it so he doesn't think it is the Bendix or the bendix would not have installed so easily. He also started the car upwards of 10 times over 2 days and drove it with no problems from start to finish.
So it is a puzzle right now. I am going to observe over the next week and start the car numerous times and see if it continues to happen.
On the 12V - Mark, that is a possibility - it always has been if the new fully refurbished 6V starter from Chaffins installed did not solve everything. It seems improved vs the first time when everything was just frozen solid. I said to Dave at your store that if the 6V did not solve things then I would consider a 12V - most of the Long Beach T guys have them and love them. I want to try to make this work with the 6V so will hold out a bit longer until I cant anymore. It might be a mission in futility but I do want to try.
And I do want to make sure that there is not something bigger somewhere.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:33 pm
by TRDxB2
Lisa, there were suggestions about 12volt starters. But I didn't see anything that described if your system is currently 6v or 12v. Which is it?
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:25 am
by lirogo27
TRDxB2 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:33 pm
Lisa, there were suggestions about 12volt starters. But I didn't see anything that described if your system is currently 6v or 12v. Which is it?
6v. I replaced the 6v starter with a fully refurbished 6v starter.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:26 am
by lirogo27
Mark Chaffin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:46 pm
Yes. You could go to the more modern 12V WOSP starter as an option. Not original: however, it is a superior unit. Many who want a more reliable starter have switched over and have been very satisfied. The drive gear engages from the opposite side of the ring gear. It is also has a gear reduction drive for added torque. I have been running one for over 10 years without a problem.
On the 12V - Mark, that is a possibility - it always has been if the new fully refurbished 6V starter from Chaffins installed did not solve everything. It seems improved vs the first time when everything was just frozen solid. I said to Dave at your store that if the 6V did not solve things then I would consider a 12V - most of the Long Beach T guys have them and love them. I want to try to make this work with the 6V so will hold out a bit longer until I cant anymore. It might be a mission in futility but I do want to try.
And I do want to make sure that there is not something bigger somewhere.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:27 am
by lirogo27
speedytinc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:34 pm
The bendix should slide on easy. onto the 1/2" shaft & also the 1" bushing in the starter snout.
When in all the way it should rotate friction-less.
It was smooth. Checked by one of the guys in our Long Beach club that I trust implicitly.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:09 pm
by George Mills
I had similar experience, the starter had run for a long time with a bent shaft, things took a set, my original Bendix looked good, ring gear felt ok, but the thing stuck all the time. (leave in gear, rock the car, popped out, then start).
I went with an RP starter at a time he had a backlog that went to the moon and when he finally had one this was at the same time that they discovered the repro Bendix were bunko and Langs ceased selling Bendix, and the price of used Bendix doubled until the supplier/maker finally took all of Lang’s ‘complaint’ list and had to prove to Lang's that each and every reported gig had been addressed. It took forever and in the end I decided to mount the new starter and just clean up the old Bendix until there were new Bendix available from Lang’s.
All buttoned up, no kickback experience…danged Bendix stuck on one of the first times tried. Here’s what I did…may not apply to your situation but its free and takes 15 minutes with a no harm, no foul.
Let the Bendix stick, loosen the 4 starter bolts, rap the starter with a dead hammer in a direction away from the gear, it popped loose all by itself, tighten the bolts at that point. No more sticks in my case, but that was only about 3 more months as a new Bendix came in and I changed it out, but left the starter in place. It was just that slight misalignment? Or, coincidence? I dunno, it fixed itself…lol
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:19 pm
by TXGOAT2
Could the starter shaft centerline too close to crankshaft centerline? If so, some brass shim stock at the mounting flange could be used to tip the starter slightly to move the shaft away from the crankshaft center.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:26 pm
by Moxie26
Two mounting gaskets will accomplish your suggestion
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:32 pm
by Moxie26
Reread George Mills posting, it makes sense.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:27 pm
by lirogo27
George Mills wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:09 pm
I had similar experience, the starter had run for a long time with a bent shaft, things took a set, my original Bendix looked good, ring gear felt ok, but the thing stuck all the time. (leave in gear, rock the car, popped out, then start).
I went with an RP starter at a time he had a backlog that went to the moon and when he finally had one this was at the same time that they discovered the repro Bendix were bunko and Langs ceased selling Bendix, and the price of used Bendix doubled until the supplier/maker finally took all of Lang’s ‘complaint’ list and had to prove to Lang's that each and every reported gig had been addressed. It took forever and in the end I decided to mount the new starter and just clean up the old Bendix until there were new Bendix available from Lang’s.
All buttoned up, no kickback experience…danged Bendix stuck on one of the first times tried. Here’s what I did…may not apply to your situation but its free and takes 15 minutes with a no harm, no foul.
Let the Bendix stick, loosen the 4 starter bolts, rap the starter with a dead hammer in a direction away from the gear, it popped loose all by itself, tighten the bolts at that point. No more sticks in my case, but that was only about 3 more months as a new Bendix came in and I changed it out, but left the starter in place. It was just that slight misalignment? Or, coincidence? I dunno, it fixed itself…lol
GEORGE, I am going to start the car about a dozen or so times over the next 4 or 5 days (work week is killer for me timing wise) and see what happens. I spoke with Tom at the LB club and he is perplexed. Everyone is perplexed because now we know the ring gear and fly wheel look ok. I wonder if it is my 'starting style' as the LB guys did not experience sticking before it came back to me a week ago. I will share your comments with 'the boys' and see if they think that is worth trying!
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:28 pm
by lirogo27
TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:19 pm
Could the starter shaft centerline too close to crankshaft centerline? If so, some brass shim stock at the mounting flange could be used to tip the starter slightly to move the shaft away from the crankshaft center.
Will share and see if this is worth trying!!!!!! THX
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:35 pm
by lirogo27
Moxie26 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:26 pm
Two mounting gaskets will accomplish your suggestion
Will Share with the Long Beach guys and see if they think it is worth trying. I will try starting the car about a dozen times over the next 4-5 days. Paying attention to where in the starting cycle the stick happens. Is it in the 5th try? 10th try in a row or first try when the battery is 'sharp'.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:35 pm
by lirogo27
TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:19 pm
Could the starter shaft centerline too close to crankshaft centerline? If so, some brass shim stock at the mounting flange could be used to tip the starter slightly to move the shaft away from the crankshaft center.
Very interesting. HMMMMMMM.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:57 pm
by speedytinc
If you push/pull on the starter shaft, does it move in/out excessively. The shaft/armature need move very little.
Is there evidence that the counterweight has been hitting the ring gear? Look where the gear & counterweight meet.
I wish I could see for myself. Is your T @ tom L's shop? I see in your pictures it was there @ one time. I work across the street from him.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:55 pm
by lirogo27
speedytinc wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:57 pm
If you push/pull on the starter shaft, does it move in/out excessively. The shaft/armature need move very little.
Is there evidence that the counterweight has been hitting the ring gear? Look where the gear & counterweight meet.
I wish I could see for myself. Is your T @ tom L's shop? I see in your pictures it was there @ one time. I work across the street from him.
Yes it was at Tom's. It came back last week when he was done testing it and trouble shooting the fact that the car wouldn't start once we replaced the starter at my house. (The keyway somehow fell out in the reinstall process). He and John tested it throughout the two days and it was fine. He also did the annual maintenance on it and looked it over and gave it a seal of approval. It will not go back down to him unless we can't figure out what is causing sticking without a 'heavy intervention' ....but I will try all the small things everyone noted above .... He and I talked yesterday but he is puzzled what it could be. If we need to go big then Tom is the guy!
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:35 am
by Scott_Conger
as was posted earlier, be sure to pay attention to George Mill's post. There were new Bendix's sold a few years ago which did EXACTLY what you are complaining about.
If the problem persists, get a rebuilt bendix from Bob's and be done with it.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:16 pm
by lirogo27
Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:35 am
as was posted earlier, be sure to pay attention to George Mill's post. There were new Bendix's sold a few years ago which did EXACTLY what you are complaining about.
If the problem persists, get a rebuilt bendix from Bob's and be done with it.
Scott....who is 'Bob'? I can contact him as I heard rebuilt units were still in short supply. The problem is I do not know the history of this car's Bendix. I do know all was well between March and May 2022. Then the jam. The belief was the starter arm was bent. Replaced the starter with a fully rebuilt unit. And now this small degree of catching. The question for you - would the Bendix install and move smoothly to the touch if it were one of the bad bendix?
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:21 pm
by lirogo27
lirogo27 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:16 pm
Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:35 am
as was posted earlier, be sure to pay attention to George Mill's post. There were new Bendix's sold a few years ago which did EXACTLY what you are complaining about.
If the problem persists, get a rebuilt bendix from Bob's and be done with it.
Scott....who is 'Bob'? I can contact him as I heard rebuilt units were still in short supply (As are starters). The problem is I do not know the history of this car's Bendix. I do know all was well between March and May 2022. Then the jam. The belief was the starter arm was bent. Replaced the starter with a fully rebuilt unit. And now this small degree of catching. The question for you - would the Bendix install and move smoothly to the touch if it were one of the bad bendix?
I have George's suggestion printed out and actually shared it with a few folks. This one interested me a lot. I don't believe the previous owner changed the bendix. His list of mechanical work done did not have it. He owned the car two years and before that - who knows! If this car was garaged for many years before Don bought it at an estate sale, I am guessing this is an older Bendix.....
I am happy to try another Bendix...
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:33 pm
by Scott_Conger
Sorry 'bout that...Bob's, as in Bob's Antique Auto Parts in Love's Park, IL (815) 633-7244. He has mentioned just recently that he has rebuilt ones in stock.
as for sticking, I cannot answer your question as I have only heard of the trouble, but never experienced it myself. If it is only a recent problem, I may well be wrong. That said, a newly rebuilt starter with proper bearing at the commutator end, bush at the working end and a NEW BEARING FOR THE BENDIX along with a straight shaft, good ring gear and good bendix, sticking should be an extraordinarily rare event. As far as things being off-center, that is pretty much an impossibility.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:55 pm
by lirogo27
Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:33 pm
Sorry 'bout that...Bob's, as in Bob's Antique Auto Parts in Love's Park, IL (815) 633-7244. He has mentioned just recently that he has rebuilt ones in stock.
as for sticking, I cannot answer your question as I have only heard of the trouble, but never experienced it myself. If it is only a recent problem, I may well be wrong. That said, a newly rebuilt starter with proper bearing at the commutator end, bush at the working end and a NEW BEARING FOR THE BENDIX along with a straight shaft, good ring gear and good bendix, sticking should be an extraordinarily rare event. As far as things being off-center, that is pretty much an impossibility.
If Bob's had them.....LOL...your post probably cleaned him out. They are hard to find. Supply not caught up yet. Last time I called Bob's he had the part I was looking for that partic day. When I posted he had the item...he was sold out a day after that as he had an influx of inquiries. I wont call him for a new bendix. Will see how the other items work first.
Well trying to eliminate each item one by one. Starting small and moving up the chain. Hoping it is not the worst case scenario. THX
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:18 pm
by TXGOAT2
Re: Off-center: Line bore slightly off (?) Hogshead not properly seated (?) Crankshaft flange re-machined (?) What about thrust bearing wear?
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:21 pm
by lirogo27
TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:18 pm
Re: Off-center: Line bore slightly off (?) Hogshead not properly seated (?) Crankshaft flange re-machined (?) What about thrust bearing wear?
WIll add this to list of what could be and work my way up. THX!
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:24 pm
by TXGOAT2
Start with the Bendix. Examining it may give clues as to what is wrong, if it is something other than the Bendix itself, which is possible, but unlikely.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:26 pm
by lirogo27
TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:24 pm
Start with the Bendix. Examining it may give clues as to what is wrong, if it is something other than the Bendix itself, which is possible, but unlikely.
oK! I will definitely and will let you all know as I know.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:28 pm
by TRDxB2
Some info to look at
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:46 pm
by lirogo27
TRDxB2 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:28 pm
Some info to look at
Thank you! Printing and reading!!!!!
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:40 pm
by fishndale
Have the same issue. What was interesting in my case is that loosening the starter and jogging the truck didn't help (model TT). I beat on the starter too. After removing the Bendix spring and heads, the gear and starter were still both stuck. Starter backed out about 1/4 inch but no further. Had to beat on the starter shaft from the Bendix side to push out the starter enough to free the gear.
I suspect the Bendix gear was stuck in the starter nose. Attached is a photo of some galling in the nose.
Unfortunately I managed to burn out the starter after several tries (act like a short). Looking for a rebuilt.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:55 pm
by Scott_Conger
Dale
you're also now looking for a magneto coil ring, because that removal method all but certainly destroyed it
shine a light into the bendix-cover hole and you'll see the carnage
You'll do yourself a huge favor by buying the "T-2" Ford shop manual from any supplier, and study up on any repair you intend to do to avoid future regrets. The starter removal is just about the biggest time-bomb job that can be done on a Model T if done wrong.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:11 pm
by fishndale
The magneto is fine. The gear was stuck on the flywheel so it didn't move toward the magneto, just the starter shaft.
Looking at the magneto voltage with an oscilloscope, I don't see any missing cycles when cranking by hand. Engine speeds up on magneto.
From the great rebuild videos on YouTube, looks like there should be a bearing in the nose. Its totally unsupported.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:26 pm
by Norman Kling
The front is not supported. The gear should spin toward the flywheel to start and it should turn the gear on the flywheel until the engine either starts or the battery goes dead. As soon as the engine starts the flywheel spins faster than the starter is turning which spins the gear back toward the starter. So if it is sticking to the gear, something is either out of alignment or the teeth are bad. If the starter engages the flywheel gears and causes the flywheel to turn, the starter is ok. However if it hits the flywheel gear and does not turn the flywheel, the teeth are either worn out or the gear on the flywheel is backward. The teeth on both gears are beveled on the edge so the teeth will slide right in.
A couple other things. Will the engine turn with the hand crank? Is the parking brake lever all the way back when you try to start? If the lever is forward, the car is in high gear and the starter does not have enough power to move the car in gear so it sticks.
Norm
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:27 pm
by Scott_Conger
the nose would have a babbit bearing (there are some babbit remains showing in your photo). Rebuilds (good ones) have a bronze bushing installed and then line-reamed to the housing.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:59 pm
by fishndale
To answer a couple questions, the hand crank won't turn. The hand brake was in neutral (brake on).
I'm now thinking that since the babbit bearing is gone or destroyed, the bendix may have slid into the starter where the bearing belongs and jammed. A bearing, plus oil seal, should keep the Bendix from going into the starter nose. Correct?
Luckily the magneto coils look fine. If the bendix went into the starter, it could have hit the magneto. Yup, there would be carnage.
Just posted this because it could be related to other folks having stuck starters.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:39 pm
by Scott_Conger
Dale
in fairness to Lisa and her question/problem, you might wish to continue this on a thread of your own. There are lots of folks who will chime in and help.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:35 am
by fishndale
Sorry Lisa, didn't mean to hijack your forum. My goal was to churn up some information that could be related to the same problem that Lisa (and several others) had. Hadn't seen a Babbitt freezing the Bendix as one of the possibilities. I've learned enough to finish here. Hope Lisa pins down the actual problem.
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:37 am
by Been Here Before
Part of the mystery can be solved with a proper inspection camera. Inspect through bendix side?
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Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:18 pm
by Norman Kling
I wonder whether or not you have the correct Bendix. The Model A and early V8's also had starter bendixes, but they are not interchangeable with the Model T. I know that the A spring can be installed on a T, however it is wound in the opposite direction and will tend to unwind after being used on a T.
Norm
Re: 1926 T - Replaced 6V starter and Bendix still Sticking
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:24 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
Norman Kling wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:18 pm
I wonder whether or not you have the correct Bendix. The Model A and early V8's also had starter bendixes, but they are not interchangeable with the Model T. I know that the A spring can be installed on a T, however it is wound in the opposite direction and will tend to unwind after being used on a T.
Norm
I don't believe that would cause the Bendix gear to jam.