Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

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Rich Eagle
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Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich Eagle » Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:48 pm

I enjoyed building the '14 as much as anything the last 50 years. Having collected parts for that long gave me nearly everything I needed. Touring and keeping 5 other Ts running in addition to some non-Ts I have neglected it for a few years. Today seemed like the right day to get it out and drive it. With a brand new engine and everything rebuilt mechanically it should be the best running T I have. It took some cranking to make it start. Adjusting and fiddling with things should have improved that. It started 3 times so I figured it was safe to go get some gas in it. It really did sound good on the way there.
Stranded.jpg
I filled the tank and a gas can for the some spare gas and proceeded to crank the engine. A dozen pulls and nothing. A dozen more without a chuff. I had brought the jack along and raised a rear wheel to crank in gear for some more momentum. Nothing.
Over the years I have learned to take setbacks in stride and not get up tight when things don't go right. It's important to me to be polite to passers by and answer questions and listen to comments. I remember someone saying we are all ambassadors of the hobby. It was 92° and pausing for a few minutes was good anyway. A couple fellows offered to help and one mentioned he had a tow strap but I don't want to impose on others. I already had a make shift bandage of paper towel and masking tape from forgetting to retard the spark. OUCH.
Taking breaks as needed I kept at it adjusting the carburetor, choking and trying the spark lever in different positions. A good hour went by. I checked the office for a cold drink and they did let me have some water. Back outside I was questioning my judgement as I kept cranking. I should have done more fiddling at home before taking it out.
Back to the office where they were showing concern for the funny old man out in the sun. They tried to phone my wife but I couldn't remember the right phone number for her. Getting older can be frustrating and old cars don't always help. Finally we figured out how to get an email to her.
It was two hours by the time she came to rescue me. We went home and got the trusty old '65 PU and a tow strap.
Joy pulled me about 20 feet and the motor sprung to life. All was good again. We forget all the little things we do to make these cars run good until they don't. I have a two week old 12V motorcycle battery, fresh gas and a NH carb that leaks a bit. I'm sure it's something simple.
One more experience to draw on.
I still often wonder how many cars are too many or which ones should I be spending more time on.
Rich
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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by CudaMan » Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:06 pm

Glad you made it home and didn't get heat stroke. A few weeks ago my '24 died in the middle of the street. Luckily I had enough momentum to coast into a gas station. Turned out I had gotten lazy and didn't firmly turn the key, and it had vibrated enough to shut the car off. The car started right up and I finished that drive and several more since without incident. :)
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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by KBurket » Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:52 pm

Never too many T’s.
I’m surprised that some wise guy driving by didn’t yell “Get a horse!” as you were cranking it.
Your car looks great setting at the gas station.


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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:36 pm

You are lucky! I have filled up at a gas station on a tour and the car ran poorly and misfired the rest of the tour. Several others filled up at the same station and had trouble too. Those who used the station across the road, had no problems. Must have been water or dirt in the tank. Draining the sediment bowl helped.
Norm


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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:40 pm

You also asked "How many T's es enough?" I would say 3 is the best number. One to drive, one to work on and one for spare parts. However, all mine have been running at the same time, but 3 is enough. One is now out of service because I blew a head gasket. I have acquired one from a good friend, and plan to install it soon. I want to do it right and check everything first because they are hard to find. At this time, I am working on a chain link fence. A branch of a large Oak fell on it almost two years ago and lately deer have been getting into the yard and eating plants I wish to keep. I wish they would only eat weeds, but they like the roses and grapes!
Norm


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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:20 pm

It can be worrisome when your T balks. I find it difficult to please Lizzie in hot weather. Our start-up routine normally gets us a "sort-of" free start after a couple of pulls with the choke soon as I turn the key to "bat". After running, and in hot weather, I'm not sure what she needs. Last week at the feed store, I gave a pull with the choke on, and Lizzie didn't like it. A few pulls with the throttle closed didn't make her any happier. I figured if I just waited a while she'd come around. Meanwhile, I had interesting conversations, volunteers of help, and several offers to be towed which I declined. By and bye, Lizzie's temper cooled, and she fired right up. I think she just wanted attention.
Get a horse !


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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:32 pm

I believe that the stuff sold today as gasoline is not well-suited for carbureted vehicles in hot weather. It seems to me that it tends to boil in the carburetor bowl after a hot shut down. In the short term, this gives you a flooded engine. In the longer term, like overnight, it gives you a dry carburetor. A T is less likely to flood, having an updraft carburetor, but if it boiled and puddled gasoline in the carburetor throat, a pull on the crank might flood the engine.

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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rob » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:57 am

Sorry for your trouble Rich. I will say it made for a good post (at your expense). Enjoy your cars the rest of the summer, and thank you for posting,
Rob

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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich Eagle » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:03 pm

These cars can make us humble at times. These incidents were commonplace the first few years of my T experience. Overcoming them made for better running ones as time went on. Some of the best stories were of bad experiences. I'm sure this one with be performing well after some more work and investigation. Sadly several friends gave up before they conquered their problems and don't get their Ts out and enjoy them as they could.
We relish our successes and feel skillful and confident when things go well. Disappointments are part of the reality and I believe how we accept them and overcome them is important.
This gas station is one of the few nearby that sell ethanol-free regular. I doubt the gas was the problem but sitting outside, idle for 3 years may have developed condensation it he tank. I hadn't drained the sediment bulb as I will. I rebuilt a Holley G which I will put on it to rule out the old NH being the problem. Checking the timing again and the battery are also on the list.
Thanks for the comments
Rich
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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:30 pm

It becomes an interesting question how much neglect a T can suffer and remain dependable. It seems regular use is a good preventative for little gripes that can develop hidden from notice when the car is laid by for any length of time. I'm silly enough to impute a personality to my Lizzie, that she tends to act up to get attention. :lol: It really seems to work that way.
Get a horse !

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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich Eagle » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:18 pm

The Ts do develop interesting traits. I feel it more with the ones I drive than this one so far.
Did is say "It's probably something simple"?
Like getting back up on the horse that "throwed you" I went out to see what I could determine might be the problem. The new motor cycle battery seemed less suspicious but I put it on the charger just the same. Meanwhile I drained the sediment bulb but no water was there. Next I finished assembling my Holley G. As it turned out the battery took an hour and a half to charge completely. That told me it had gone down more than a little driving on it. After charging and installing it the motor sprang to life with 3 pulls on the crank without even choking. All the settings were right so it definitely was the battery.
14Batt.jpg
Shown above is my makeshift cutoff switch which I have removed. It's as easy to undo a wing nut as to throw the switch after taking out the seat and lifting the seat cover.
All the second guessing was for nothing and I'm not sure whether it is good practice or not.
The bottom line is it was inconvenient to be stranded and could have been a lot worse given the temperature.
I can't believe I drained the battery that fast unless I left the switch on for a long time. It will take a while to trust that battery again.
Back in the Saddle again
Rich
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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:03 pm

It's a great feeling to pin down the cause of a failure ! Late last summer Lizzie was starting grudgingly. I hadn't charged the battery since March, and when fully charged, starts were quick and willing once again. Obviously, a strong battery makes for a good, hot spark ! I'm glad to be following this post, it reminds me I should charge the battery!

(I need to clean the plugs and the TW timer too - haven't done that since spring of '21 :shock:)
Get a horse !


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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Altair » Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:31 pm

I had started my 26 T parked in the garage many times just to hear it run, it was a routine process, with out ignition on two pulls with choke and one pull with no choke the ignition on one more pull and it would start. I repeated this procedure many times. On one occasion my routine process was to no avail there was no action what so ever, after several attempts I had noticed that there was some evidence of an unauthorized person or persons had been in the car and messed with the carb settings. After resetting it back to the correct position it started with no issues. Every carb may be a little different position but the position can be critical for an easy start.


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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:21 pm

When you turn on the ignition switch to Batt, can you hear the coils buzz? If you turn the crank a small amount do they buzz? If the coils buzz, you should be getting spark to the cylinders. One thing which happens sometimes, especially on a hot day after you turn off the engine and it sets for a short time, especially if you have a high float level or leaky intake needle on the carburetor is to get the engine flooded. If you pull the choke when you try to start, it will flood. The choke is only used for cold starts. If the engine is flooded, one way to un flood it would be to turn OFF the switch and then spin the crank, pulling up and pushing down around for several turns. Only spin the crank with the switch off because pushing down with the switch on, could damage your arm.
After you spin the crank a few times, then switch on with spark retarded to the place where you usually start the car. A few pulls up WITHOUT choking, and it should start. Toeing with the strap will do the same thing as spinning the crank, because after it turns a few times it is no longer flooded.
Norm

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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:25 pm

Thanks Norman. I always appreciate your suggestions. The fact that the car starts easily with the battery charged leads me to believe everything is in relatively good adjustment. The coils were buzzing even with the low battery. I just couldn't spin it over fast enough. Pulling it did work.
It surprised me that it started without coking it. My '09 does that while my 4 other Ts don't. I can't see any similar variables to those 2 Ts except that they both have early, small tailpipes. I don't think that would be a logical reason.
The Battery seems to be the real problem. It wouldn't start yesterday after installing the Holley G either. It took an hour to bring the battery up to full charge so I do suspect it.
I'll try it today. It may be the Holley isn't set right yet. (Don't fix stuff that isn't broke) :D
I'll do some more today. I thought of getting another Optima. The one in the Speedster has been great since 2002. Maybe a garden tractor battery would be good. Or maybe this is just a bad motorcycle battery.
Thanks rich and David too.
More later.
Rich
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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:54 pm

P.S. It started just fine with the Holley. I'll look for a short in the wiring, then take the new battery back.
Rich
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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:55 pm

A battery that collects crud on top will self-discharge through the acidic crud, especially if moisture is available.


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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:58 pm

If you start it, it's best to drive it, especially in cool weather. Ten miles is a good minimum trip.

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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich Eagle » Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:52 pm

To my surprise the battery has been staying up. The car has started fairly well and putting the charger on brings it to full charge in a matter of minutes. I guess I will use it as is unless it dies again. It's early failures puzzle me. Maybe it wasn't fully charged when new.
I will play with different coils and adjustments. It would help if it started on Mag but I can't spin it over fast enough. Maybe when the engine frees up a bit it will.
Thank again for the advice and encouragement.
Rich
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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:21 pm

I'd guess it was not fully charged if you just purchased it. Those small batteries like a long charge period like 24 hrs, at a low rate, like 1 amp or so.


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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Sarikatime » Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:11 pm

What I have heard from several sources, the new batteries manufactured now day are made different than before. Somehow the new build technique is to have the battery at peak power for a long time than suddenly the power drops to zero like dead. They do not slow down and down till dead as before. I may be wrong but that is what I head. Frank


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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:19 pm

I used to hear that 12 volt batteries would "hit the wall" quicker than a comparable 6 volt battery. The 12 volt batteries typically have smaller cells, which might explain the behavior. Li type batteries have a number of advantages, but I don't think high reserve power is among them.

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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:05 pm

Did 14's have a battery? If not, if you add a battery on a '14 it starts easier? How do you add a battery to an early?

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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:46 pm

Ignacio, I don't think pre starter Fords came with a battery but the ignition switch always had a battery position. Owners and dealers installed them however they could when needed. I can't start my cars on Mag. It or I am too weak. I have mounted batteries various places, under the rear seat, under floorboards. I don't like to mount them next to the gas tank in case of a spark igniting fumes but have done so on this last attempt.

All has gone well in starting the '14 until last Wednesday. At the exact same spot at the gas station I shut it off and it would not restart. I was stranded another half hour until a friend let me use his cell phone to call my wife. Of course I tried again while she was on the way and it did start. So I had to call her back. It was another hot day and I had driven about the same distance. The battery took two hours to charge as it did the first time it stranded me. It usually charges in a few minutes. I asked the lady at the battery store if heat bothers those batteries. She said it certainly does. Both locations I have mounted the battery were on the exhaust side so there is some additional heat from it.
My conclusion is that at that temperature the battery losses enough power to start the stiff engine at the speed I can crank it. The coils still buzz and that is misleading. I bought a bigger battery like the one I have used in another T for many years with no trouble. I will keep it charged and carry it in a cooler spot for backup. I can use it for testing and eventually in this or another car.
I the meanwhile I swapped and adjusted coils, switched a carburetors and thoroughly checked or changed all wiring and connections. The T now runs better than it ever has so all was not lost. These smaller batteries are convenient but can have their problems.
Thanks for the comments and suggestions.
Rich
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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by JohnM » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:47 pm

Years ago, when money was too tight for me to buy a full size battery, I would buy a 6 volt flashlight battery and ground the cutout to the generator. Hand crank start on battery then switch to mag. Never a problem, I just had to make sure I was home before dark. :D

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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:30 pm

Well my theory about the hot battery just went out the window. It sounded so logical but it happened again this evening after getting that hot again. My spare battery wouldn't make it fire either. After letting things cool down while we ate dinner it started on the first pull. That certainly doesn't sound like a carburetor problem. I can see no difference in the setup of this and my '09. Aluminum intake on both. Moisture from the radiator maybe? It does leak the first half gallon out. The timer doesn't look wet.
It runs so good now otherwise. This Fall will not get to the problem temperature so we will see.
Like Steve Jelf and others, it is surprising we haven't found the answer. I though we had.
Rich
P.S. I am remembering being puzzled on the Speedster in the '60s. I use a hot shot dry cell as the only ignition. No magneto. Each time it died like this I would fiddle or take apart the carburetor. By the time I got the carb back on the battery had come up enough to run another 10 or 15 minutes. I will laugh about this the same way someday.
Meanwhile, my best to Steve.
Thanks
Rich
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Re: Stranded at the Gas Pump or Too Many Model T's?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:41 pm

I'd look for something that could affect all 4 coils.

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