MTFCA Forum

Officially joined the ‘not paying attention while hand cranking’ club

Well Jeff, that left a mark. You’ve reminded me to redouble my pre crank inspection. Hope you get better soon but what an opportunity to learn to crank with your left hand as suggested. Get well soon, best John

Yes, Henry's instructions were to crank using the left hand.

From 12 years ago I have two broken fingers that were broken in 5 places. They work ok now but are a bit bent and I cannot make a totally enclosed fist. I have been much more careful since the incident……

looks like a combination of spark lever in wrong position, and either pushing down on crank or quickly moving your arm up and out of the way when pulling up also possibility that your thumb was around the crank handle. Sorry! I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Accidents can happen so fast we don't realize it until it has already happened. Heal quickly!
Norm

I was spinning it all the way around, which I know better than to do but I Was distracted and in a hurry. Always pay attention to what you’re doing

Ahhh. The dreaded chauffeur fracture. Heal up quickly, and get that left hand cranking!

Well crap....

Ouch !! I know that hurt Like my basic training platoon sergeant told us: “Some people learn by reading. Some people learn by watching examples. Then others learn by peeing on an electric fence.” I hope your pain is minimal and you quickly heal

Sorry to hear about that Jeff. My right wrist was broken in 1982 when I got distracted by a pretty girl that was asking questions about my T. I offered to show her how to start it, but when I neglected to retard the spark after a failed first try, I ended up showing her how to break an arm. It would have been worth it had I remembered to ask her for her phone number, but I didn’t even get that.

Jeff, was your arm broken or sprained? Did the crank hit your arm or was the arm wrenched and sprained? What part of your arm was damaged and how long will you be out of commission? I hope you have a rapid recovery with no long term disabilities. Good luck. Jim Patrick

Look close at the hand crank instruction picture and you can see the guy has his thumb behind the crank handle and NOT wrapped around it whichever hand you use!


Accidents like this bring us back to reality that hand cranking a T is dangerous and to not take it for granted.

And always retard the spark control!

Yes I know we all know this BUT never take a T for granted. Ford knew what he was doing when he introduced starters in 1919.

Wishing you a speedy recovery.

This is where getting into good habits will prevent damaged limbs & bendix drives. Set your levers to their start positions before or immediately after shutting off your motor. Double check before turning the key to starting position. Especially when a T has been unattended, such as a car show.
The older I get, the more I like stupid proofing stuff & procedures.

jeffstag wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:49 am

I was spinning it all the way around, which I know better than to do but I Was distracted and in a hurry. Always pay attention to what you’re doing

Jeff, sorry to hear and see of your bad luck! Glad it isn't any worse. Aren't your cars electric start, or do you have an earlier one that's not listed in your profile?

The majority of "crank start-only cars" often are "spun". Their nickname is "stemwinders" for a reason. If all levers are set properly, timing is good, "winding" should not be a problem. Otherwise, there'd be a lot of starter cars with busted bendix's. Think of it, all electric start cars "stemwind" every time you hit the button. So I say, what's the difference? To that end, though, I'm lucky I guess, Clarabelle, my '13 only needs two "quarter yanks" of prime, followed by three of the same without prime, hit the switch and if it doesn't free start, only one quarter yank and away she goes! Maybe takes two yanks when it's colder out.

Hope you mend and heal quickly and get back on the road!

The injury isn’t mine Jim. It happened to the original poster - Jeff Versteeg.

It’s actually a 1927 non-starter TT

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=watyKyYclGI&t=908s

That’s the truck there

That’s an awesome TT

Cranking with the ignition off is safest, whether you use the crank or the starter. Any time the engine needs spun, whether because it's flooded or it needs a lot of choking to start, the spinning will be just as effective with the ignition off. If you hand crank a warm engine you'd better make double sure the spark lever and parking brake lever are in the right place and that you are grabbing the crank handle correctly. (No harm in trying for a free start first of all)

Jeff
your walk around tour of your 27 TT is interesting! It looks like your TT Truck is a factory original non electric T! Have you considered adding a starter and generator to it since it has the provisions for them. I wonder if it has a battery carrier on it and if not the holes in the frame are there for one since it was a non electric. It’s always been interesting to me the extent Ford went to leave off parts or mounting holes, and etc on the 26-27 improved Fords as they were supposed to be improved.
Neat truck you have there!

Another question would be if a non electric starter T would have a ring gear for a starter on the fly wheel.

John kuehn wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:05 pm

Another question would be if a non electric starter T would have a ring gear for a starter on the fly wheel.

This late, yes its going to have a starter ring gear. Not long after 19, Ford stopped offering non ring gear flywheels in parts catalogs. Same with wood fire walls 17 & on. After 23 you got the metal replacement. I think that explains why I have seen a number of mint low steel firewalls.

I’m going to keep it as a non starter since I like the originality of the whole thing. I don’t know if you noticed, but did you see the vaporizer carb had only a single arm on the choke? A special part only for non starters!

Even if your car does not have a starter, it is easier to start on battery than on magneto. That is because the battery keeps the coils buzzing and as soon as the piston is up on compression the timer will determine the timing. So you can set it to where it buzzes just after reaching top dead center. However with only the magneto, your timing lever position is very important, because there is only one spark per cylinder and that one has to come when the timer and magneto match positions. The adjustment of the coils is quite important that the dwell is the same on each coil. So with mag only, you need to find the best setting for the spark lever and sometimes it is a bit down from the top. So it is easy to advance it too far and have it kick.
Norm

The majority of "crank start-only cars" often are "spun".

Not mine. I say if it won't start by simply pulling up on the crank, fix it. Any Model T should crank start without "spinning".
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG101.html

I'm gung ho on safe starting since I permanently damaged myself with stupid cranking. I can still use the hand, but it's always numb and weak. I did this with a tractor, but I doubt that it would hurt any less with a Model T. And boy, did it hurt! I don't recommend it.

Have a look at Steve's video demonstration: https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/app.php/gallery/image/2993
Thanks Steve, and get well soon Jeff.

We often talk about starting procedures but there are two different procedures one for mag and one for battery. Mag starts won't kick back but a battery start can---- if you forget to retard the spark. I was just getting mine in
to position to pull over center and I had the spark advanced and ignition on I had just touched the crank and moved it about an inch and it kicked back so fast the crank came back around in a milli second and struck the back of my hand at full speed. My hand was white, numb and extremely painful but I was lucky no broken bones. It was just a complacent second, even though I knew better. I was using my right hand.

I am right handed. When i try to use my left hand for cranking, I am clumsy/unfamiliar at best. I am much more confident with my right hand, and considerably better coordinated, so right handed it s for me. But, one point I would make when cranking. Do it as though you mean it! Set the two levers. Remember to engage the handle so you pull upwards. Choke it before you turn on the ignition, then have a real swing once turned on. A gentle pull to check if everything is in order is not the way to go. The more gusto you put into it, the less likely any backfire will occur.
These reminders are timely for us. The lesson they teach can let us avoid life changing moments.

Allan from down under.

I once had a 600 CC single British Motorcycle and it was the same procedure, setting, spark, choke and throttle and when you were ready it had to be kicked right through the ground with full authority. If you messed with it, it would kick back and drive your knee up to the handlebars. You would never get a broken arm, just a damaged knee.

Upon examination, in addition to not paying attention to cranking form, I had the truck in gear. It has an auxiliary Muncie that I was careful to put in neutral, but I didn’t have the hand brake pulled back enough and the engine was in gear. That’s why it didn’t feel normal. I double checked the spark and gas settings and they were correct.

David's motorcycle experience can also be achieved by using your foot to start a T. A stiff leg, like a stiif arm pushing down on the crank handle, invites the same result.

Allan from down under.

A T can kick back when starting on magneto. It's usually necessary to advance the spark somewhat when starting the car on magneto. (See Ford instuctions, and use caution) But if you advance it too far, the engine will kick back the same on magneto as on battery.

One good way to minimize risk when starting a T is to keep the engine in good condition and in good tune. It's also a good idea to keep the throttle, spark, and choke linkages in good condition with minimal slack. It's important to keep the timer wire loom in good shape, too. Shorting timer wires can cause the engine to fire out of time. For predictable starting with minimal effort, frustration,and opportunity for mishap, always keep the engine and related controls in good conditon and good adjustment. It's a good idea to be very wary when starting a Model T that you are not familiar with. They aren't all the same, and they never were.

One question. Did the Doc or Hospital try to file on your car insurance?
Friend on mine’s wife when to Doc with back problems. Told them it started when on vacation he and she drove back from Key West to B’ham without stopping. His health insurance made him file it on his car insurance.

No, nothing with car insurance. I was a little vague at the hospital though and just said I was working on an old engine. I figured a lot of the details were kind of unnecessary to throw out and somebody who probably wouldn’t know what I was talking about anyway

Jeff, it looks like you are wearing your favorite shirt.

Such accidents can happen to anyone, from the newbie to the third generation Model T'er. That's why I chose to install a starter on my originally non-starter 1917. At my age I prefer to avoid major injuries. I already limp around after a Ford tractor shattered my ankle between a tire and fender three years ago.

Unfortunately, we get distracted and in my case I got lazy. I’m going to go with accidents happen. I feel for you Jeff I’m about 18 months from breaking my shoulder my advice is do what the doctors tell you and if you have to do rehab take it seriously. I’m only about 85% from where I was prior to breaking my shoulder cranking my 11. It takes longer to heal as we age. My surgeon says it may be all I get back to. Hang in there! Let’s all hope that nobody else will join this exclusive club.

No Model T hand cranking thread is complete without this young lady, who is the definition of a distraction. Jim Patrick

Credit: This picture of Christina Skorochod was taken by William Vanderburg at an event held at the “River Rock and Marina” in Brick, NJ in about 2010. Thanks William.

Hand cranking a Model T in todays world is seen by lots of folks as a step back in time, quaint and nostalgic, old time way of doing things, reliving your Grandpas past and the list goes on.

Those of us on the forum who have been around a while by now know this isn’t exactly so. Watching those old Buster Keaton and silent movie comedy’s actors “spin, spin” a T trying to start it isn’t so funny in the real world of reality. Be safe.

Last summer we had a visit by two of our great grandchildren. Our great grandson called my Model T
"Old Technology" Likewise the telephone which is wired into the house!
Norm

As a matter of fact, the Model T functions on exactly the same principles as a brand new Corvette. As for electric cars, that technology predates the Model T, and the rotary electric motor itself is older technology than is the internal combustion engine. The chemical battery technology is older yet. If you are lucky enough to own a steam powered car, it operates on the same fundamental principle as the latest nuclear powered warship. As for that nuisance of a cell phone, it's merely an elaboration on wireless telegraphy and the radiophone, and hardly new in any basic way. Many of the cell phone's features and functions serve interests other than those of the user.

…… ……. ……. ……

Old technology. I have an antique Victor III outside horn disc phonograph, an Edison Home cylinder phonograph and a Reginaphone disc music box/phonograph. My son’s friends came over and asked what they were. I wound them up and played them for them. Kids who grew up with advanced cellphones, computers, big screen TV’s and video games were AMAZED! They asked all kinds of questions as to where the music came from and how sound was generated and could not believe these phonographs were over 100 years old. Interesting that, like the Model T, they are started with cranks. Jim Patrick

l grew up with the Victor phonograph. For a while during the depression we lost our rental home and moved into a Cabin that my grandfather had built in 1914. There was no electricity. We had to go to the stream to get water in a bucket and use a wood stove for cooking. My mom washed clothes with a washboard and ironed with an iron you heat on the stove. Had to hike in about a mile from the nearest road. We also had oil lamps and listened to the old records. My dad and a friend played a violin and guitar in the evenings. We also went to a "house on the hill" which was a pit toilet. On Sundays we hiked up the trail and drove to my grandparents house where I got my weekly bath. While at the cabin I just got washed down with a wet washcloth or if very dirty I got a bath in a round tub in cold water or some heated mixed with it. We were only there for a few months, but seemed much longer to a 3 year old. I have a Victor machine and about 1000 old records Norm

Sound idyllic Norman to experience living the way they did in the 19th century. Great memories, I’m sure. Nice Victor you have there. I also collect, repair and restore antique windup clocks. I have about 50 that I wind each week.

When my son’s friends expressed an interest in my “talking machines”, I also told them about how the term, “put a sock in it”, came about. Today it is a way of telling someone to be quiet. Back in the early 20th century, putting a sock in the horn of a phonograph was the way one reduced the volume of an outside horn phonograph, which could be rather loud if you were playing a new record. I have an upright Edison Diamond Disc inside horn phonograph that is equipped with a volume control consisting of a cloth covered cotton ball attached to a cable that slides into the horn to reduce the volume.

A lot of people are unaware that steel phonograph needles are designed to play just one record and the needle must be changed after playing one record, maybe two records. Trying to play more than that will gouge out the groove and badly damage or destroy your record. I get around this by using three sided bamboo needles that can be sharpened with a guillotine-like Victor fiber needle cutter with an angled razor sharp blade that cuts the bamboo needle at the proper angle. Being wood, and softer than the records, they will not damage the records. Jim Patrick

Hmm,...interesting that every old fashioned antirque hand cranked record player I've ever seen, the hand crank seems to be located on the right hand side,.....jus' sayn'......harold....

I read somewhere a long time ago that cactus needles made good phonograph needles. I remember when many portable phonographs had a small compartment for spare needles, and the drugstore carried small paper packs of new steel needles.

That is correct. 1” long cactus needles will work if they have been allowed to dry and harden after being snipped off and they will not damage the grooves. Jim Patrick

Victor Tungs-Tone stylus needles play 78 RPM records until they wear out.. gives you at least 75 to 100 plays

WOW
This forum topic started out about hand cranking accidents then drifted to old phonographs and needles then back around to an old picture of a hand crank accident and first aid being applied! I wonder if was this pic was staged to remind us then and 90+ years later!
Thanks John Heaman for this one.