MTFCA Forum

I have been pondering for years a way to circulate extra water to cool the rear cylinders in my speedster engine. I always imagined something similar to a Fronty water manifold fed by a water hose tapped off of the standard water inlet casting. The more I think about it... the more I consider making an authentic Fronty water manifold to do the job.

This is the design I have roughed in, but would like a few extra pics and dimensions from a few originals before I decide to do anything with it. I would prefer to have this cast in aluminum via 3D printed sand rather than make a pattern.

Many of these water manifolds are straight over the top of the mounting holes, but I saw one on the Speedway website that has a kick up that would provide additional mag and water pump clearance, allow bolts to be installed, and also not obstruct the valve cover. I chose to start with this version as it seemed to make more sense.

Either style, I would like flange dimensions, tube diameters, and inlet tube angle dimensions if possible...

After loosing track of which engine on the Speedway website that had the offset water manifold, I finally found it again...

Kevin- I'll get one to you. Dan

Awesome! Do you know if it’s an original...? There had to have been reproductions at some point...?

Email sent

Kevin:
i have looked into using an early Dodge Brothers water pump on an overhead project ... they are cast iron with an angle bracket that makes mounting easy ...they are shaft driven , with a thru shaft for additional drives ( distributor drive in the case of my Dodge Brothers ) ...sorry i don't have a picture handy ...always an optimist Gene French

Similar in design as yours Kevin. Dick McKee years back had one that was like a block off plate but had the water porting like yours and the outlet like yours going to the water pump. Wish I had a picture, a very good design.

Hank

Thanks for the tip on the possible Dodge pump.

I currently run a thermostatically controlled inline electric water pump that mounts in the lower hose. It’s a slick (albeit expensive) installation that pumps a ton of water... at any engine speed! The current plan is to restrict the stock water inlet, and install a T in the lower hose to supply water to the Fronty manifold on the other side. The hope is to circulate some water to the rear cylinder area without changing the radiator, side drive, etc...

I currently use a Datsun oil pump in place of the genny, but am hoping to replace the belt driven alternator with a gear driven version with the Datsun pump mounted to the rear. This will be phase 46 of the Akron-Hed install...

Henry K. Lee wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:38 pm

Similar in design as yours Kevin. Dick McKee years back had one that was like a block off plate but had the water porting like yours and the outlet like yours going to the water pump. Wish I had a picture, a very good design.

Hank

I pondered sumpin similar to this in revision 12, prior to my decision to lean toward a more correct Fronty version. Got carried away with fins and porting... then questioned the ability of the 4 manifold bolts to securely seal the lower ports...

Kevin :
was digging around thru my parts and found this Dodge Brothers water pump ... this is the style i am looking at to use on the Mcmillon head i purchased last year ... a simple pump that rotates clockwise as viewed from the front ... the shaft is 5/8" diameter and driven at crankshaft speed for the DB engine ... the mount is 2 bolt thru the angle plate cast in pump base ... these work well on the DB engines ... i have had 7 DB cars and all ran very well and never had problems with running hot even in our sometime 3 digit temps. ... the impeller is cast bronze , the pump body is thick enough to re-tap the bolt holes for the inlet to position as needed ... hope this helps ...always an optimist ...Gene French

Thanks to all that contributed pictures and details of the many variations of Fronty (or similar) water manifolds. And a BIG THANKS to Dan, who sent over an original!

It seems that no 2 are the same! If you look close enough, the main differences are in the various fillet radii, and a few have rotated mounting flanges on the outer ports, and the 1 at Speedway with the elevated manifold.

After many revisions, I have opted to go with the typical water manifold design. The main concern was trapping an air pocket in the offset manifold, and needing to put a bleed port in the top. Other concerns were lining up with a Fronty pump, should anyone ever try to use one for the designed application. I have had several folks express interest, and so have requested a quote for a small quantity of castings. These will be cast via 3D printed sand molds, and so the castings will have excellent accuracy. I will finish machine the castings, and supply dimensions for drilling the blocks for mounting studs. I may even have some gaskets cut if I can pull in a favor...

I have contacted all who have inquired about receiving one of these water manifolds. If you would like to add your name to the list, speak up now!

Hi Kevin, I'm late for the party. I'd like a water manifold, please add my name on the list. Thank you. Mike

Sure thing Mike

Kevin, I would like one as well, check the email I sent you. Thanks

Working on finalizing the order details with the foundry today and should have castings on order by tomorrow

Kevin,
I would also like to be put on the list for a manifold
Ralph

Currently I should have an extra casting, as pouring in pairs required me to round up the quantity

Email sent

Shamelessly piggybacking on Kevin's water rail post, I still have a small stock of bronze Fronty water pump impeller castings if anyone needs one.

The sand is being printed, and the foundry is lined up to pour. Shouldn’t be too much longer now…

Gettin closer

The foundry has shipped my order! Time to start planning the machining fixture…

Lookin good!

That is REALLY nice

Do you mind sharing the name of the foundry?

^^^^^^^
That’s a good question Scott! The sand printer sends the molds to a foundry somewhere in Indiana… this same foundry has poured several other printed sand molds for me, and all have been fantastic quality materials and mold assembly. Please note that they charge accordingly for this attention to detail as well

Oh, I have no doubt that they charge!

I spent a stint as a Supplier Quality Engineer in Aerospace and worked with a Foundry in New England and in Canada, casting very complicated avionics chassis. They were investment castings; quite the operation, and the products were as expensive as can be. A different process than yours, but I am acquainted with both, and there are fewer and fewer outfits doing this work...thus my question.

Before engaging with this 3D sand printing outfit… I had given up on having parts cast! Too many excuses! I was waiting 8-12 months for parts… and they were ugly when I finally got em! Nothin like payin full price for a casting that the foundry forgot to put the core in! I picked up a batch of Buffalo wheel centers recently… only took em 16 months! Good thing I got my order in early

For small batches, this is the only way to go! You have to be savvy with modeling software… but the parts are right the first time, with no excuses!

I hope to have all the castings machined tonite! If you are on my list, expect an email this weekend

Looks good Kevin. Did they send you a picture of the core?


Andy

Nope… A simple “proof of life” pic is all I ever get

Here are the bolt hole locations

Care to share the foundry? What format do/can they work off of? I've had some ideas . . .

Have had a few inquiries from folks who “missed the boat” on this batch of water manifolds. I’m looking into another batch of parts, but looks like 6 pieces might be the magic number to make the numbers work out for the same price as the first batch. We’re half way there… anyone else…?

Kevin, I would like 2. I PM'd you a few backs if you recall.

Absolutely Tom, I will keep in touch as the numbers come together. Hope to have answers this week

We have a very nice alum. foundry here in WI. Called Elkcast in Elkhorn WI If any one needs the name of one.

The 2nd batch of castings was delivered today, and I hope to have the machine work finished this weekend. There is 1 extra if someone needs it…

I would like to buy the extra one!
Don Lang
1-800-872-7871 weekdays

The 2nd batch of water manifolds is machined, packed, and ready to ship! Emails have been sent to those on the list

My new Fronty manifolds arrived.

Kevin did an excellent job. They look fantastic and will look even better on some engines.

Thanks to Kevin for making these parts available.

Tom

Finally getting to install my Fronty water manifold! I made a drill jig out of 5/8” thick aluminum bar, clamped it to the block, and ran a drill bit thru to the water jacket. Turns out the iron is pretty tough! A few of my tapped holes look like they were drilled by hand, the rest look pretty good. My aluminum drill jig was wearing as I struggled to drill thru the hard spots… I suggest using a steel jig or better yet a mill!