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Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:08 am
by Tom Hicks
If I replace an engine, is it ethical to remove the number from the replacement engine and stamp it with the VIN on the title?

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:48 am
by Kerry
It's illegal to do at my end of the world but it works if you don't tell anyone! :lol:

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:50 am
by James_Lyons-WV
If you really want to get down to the nitty-gritty, the block and the car in which it is being put in are being falsely represented. There are also federal laws which make it illegal to alter items that have been serial coded. Now, HAVING SAID THAT, I would say go for it so long as you make some sort of ID in the number. Put an asterisk or some feature in there to let future owners know it's fishy. Just my 2 cents....Let the firestorm begin... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:59 am
by Allan
Tom, no need to stamp the replacement block. I know of someone who made a brass plate which matched the water outlet and engine number boss, stamped the required number on the plate, and then bolted it to the replacement block using the two water outlet bolts. A smear of black RTV sealant around the perimeter of the plate made it undetectable. Of course, the whole deal is easily reversible if the need arises.

Allan from down under.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:06 am
by DanTreace
Most times the paperwork is more important to local DMV officials than the motor, as long as numbers match.

In my state changing out an engine to an owner current titled old car is just fine, only supply statement of fact and $ for reissue of new title. :)

https://www.flhsmv.gov/pdf/forms/82103.pdf

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:46 am
by Kaiser
In the day it was official Ford practice to overstamp when swapping engines, it's even in the service bulletins !
I had a chassis with a motor that was overstamped with the old number barely visible but our DMV made a hell of a ruckus about it and confiscated all paperwork , luckily someone at the Vehicle Crime Unit understood that i was not trying to pass a stolen Ferrari through the system and returned the paperwork. :lol:
So you can see from this that a lot depends on the guy who does the inspection, in general you're better off with an older guy who knows his stuff than a rookie who still has to make his mark
Just my 2c...

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:56 am
by John kuehn
Here in Texas when getting a title for an antique, classic or any old car the important thing for the DMV is checking the ID no. to see if the car is stolen.
As far as being unethical to restamp an identical block to replace a damaged block in an antique car that will depend on the seller of the car in how it’s repesented.

Now claiming to have a “numbers matching car” and trying to sell it that way would be unethical if a identical block had been installed.

Another example would be building a T from the ground up and selling it as a survivor. Now that ain’t quite right.
Simply replacing an engine in a T with a different T engine and restamping it so it’s the same on the title to me would be OK as long as you know it’s not stolen.
After 80+ years and the amount of engines found at junk yards and In pastures hardly anyone would care.
Just don’t sell the car as all original which it wouldn’t be for a purist.

I

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:07 am
by Scott_Conger
A couple of things...

When Ford was restamping engines, there were no titles issued for cars and there was no legal reason NOT to restamp the block. My 1913 received it's first Indiana Title in the mid '20's. I have that first title, and it is quite interesting in that the Sec'y of State makes a statement on the title that the owner has provided sufficient evidence of ownership and the State recognizes that fact and thus issues the title.

These days, most engine builders will stamp YOUR number into a like-kind block if your block is unrepairable and will be scrapped.

You NEVER want two blocks floating around with the same number, much less sell or give away a duplicate, as a ViN trace will show that engine already titled and then things get really dicey.

Since the OP has previously stated on another thread that nothing on his cars' engines remotely matches anything printed on his titles, I wonder why this question has even come up?

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:11 am
by Tom Hicks
Scott_conger wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:07 am
Since the OP has previously stated on another thread that nothing on his cars' engines remotely matches anything printed on his titles, I wonder why this question has even come up?
It seems that you often question my motives. At one point you said you were going to put me on "ignore", but now you are back. Did I do something to offend you?

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:21 pm
by Dennis Prince
Since you always have to explain that the engine number is what the car is registered to, I stamp the original serial number on the frame rail under the floor on the pass side where they expect it to be and it was on later cars.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:43 pm
by Tom Hicks
Dennis Prince wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:21 pm
Since you always have to explain that the engine number is what the car is registered to, I stamp the original serial number on the frame rail under the floor on the pass side where they expect it to be and it was on later cars.
Different states seem to have different rules. In Virginia you just take the title (or BOS if from a non-titling state) to the DMV and get a new title in your name. No inspection, no pictures, sometimes difficulty because there is no odometer reading which must be put on the title, on mine I told them to just put in 1,000,000 miles. I think they used UNK as in unknown on a couple of the titles.

But, they do not care about the number on the engine, the number on the frame, or any other number except the one on the old title.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:17 pm
by NHUSA
LOL

It depends on wether you are a Democrat or Republican.
If you are a Democrat you can do anything you want as long as you say it loudly and claim it was Trumps fault.
If you are an established Republican you you can do it if makes you money and you can justify the action.
If you are neither (or unwilling to make a commitment) it is OK if you think it is OK.
If you like AOC you need to have a brain transplant.

OK my opinion....
It is NOT OK to change the motor number..
It is OK to document that the motor has been changed and go forward.
Changing the actual number on the motor is fraud .... lying... cheating ..

Speaking from someone that has an unrestored - original motor for his 1919 Model T with full documentation of proof.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:19 pm
by Tom Hicks
NHUSA wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:17 pm
LOL

It depends on wether you are a Democrat or Republican.
If you are a Democrat you can do anything you want as long as you say it loudly and claim it was Trumps fault.
If you are an established Republican you you can do it if makes you money and you can justify the action.
If you are neither (or unwilling to make a commitment) it is OK if you think it is OK.
If you like AOC you need to have a brain transplant.

OK my opinion....
It is NOT OK to change the motor number..
It is OK to document that the motor has been changed and go forward.
Changing the actual number on the motor is fraud .... lying... cheating ..

Speaking from someone that has an unrestored - original motor for his 1919 Model T with full documentation of proof.
Please do not insert politics into this thread.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:38 pm
by NHUSA
Tom

I stated all political sides in my comments, therefor there were no actual politics stated
It is neutral.

But I did state my opinion.
IT IS WRONG to change the numbers on a motor.

I could have stated my religious opinion, but that it obvious.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:15 pm
by varmint
Tom,
I recommend a notarized Bill of Sale with the engine in Virginny. Then take it to the DMV, tell them what you need to do, and ask them what they need to do.
1) Ask them if your frame needs to be stamped first with the old number and if the title can be left alone after the engine swap.
2) See if you need a new title.
3) Find out the the serial number on the replacement engine is already titled by someone else (that would be interesting).
4) Ask if there is anything you have to do with the old block.
(Ex Charlottesville, VA)

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:50 pm
by Scott_Conger
James_Lyons

You made me look!
I can only find Federal Laws on serial numbers with respect to firearms and nothing else.
There are a whole slew of state laws consistent with what you've stated, though, and it is a valid point.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:36 pm
by Kohnke Rebabbitting
We have put several restamped engine blocks, in cars. Put the bare block on the mill, and take about .010 thousandths off the serial no plate, on the block. Then with the correct stamps, replace the original number off the damaged block, that was in the car, and on the cars title.

I fail to see the problem, where is the fraud. Nothing was changed, but a chunk of cast iron.

Herm.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:20 am
by Rob Patterson
kerry wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:48 am
It's illegal to do at my end of the world but it works if you don't tell anyone! :lol:
In a weaker moment of my life, I baby sat a crim who used to do this for a living and ended up under my care, being kept at Her Majesty's pleasure.
I'm with Frank, completely illegal....well, down here it is.
Cheers,
Rob

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:19 am
by Robert Kiefaber
But it still has the casting date of the block casted to the side of the stamped serial #

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:24 am
by Billdizer,Spencer In
A friend of mine, here in Indiana has owned his T for years, and one day gets a letter from the state BMV that there was a recently issued title with the same vin as his T, and he was to stamp his T vin with one more number at the end, and they issued him a new title! He went to the local BMV, and was told they couldn't help him, despite him owning the car for years, and the other titled car was recent! He ended up stamping one more number at the end of his vin!

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:07 pm
by Derek Kiefer
Owning a set of number stamps makes for a lot less hassle when dealing with incompetent bureaucrats...

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:51 pm
by TWrenn
Again, too many posts for my attention span, so if what I say has already been posted, forgive me.
But, since the engine number is typically the so-called VIN on the title, if you put in a different engine
with a different number, what's wrong with getting a blank data plate and stamping IT with the VIN
that's on the title, and then mounting said plate on the dashboard/firewall? All that's important to me
is that the car has the documentation somewhere on it with the title number to much. Who cares really
where it is? Just my two cents.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:27 pm
by travis_towle
I read somewhere that ford advised you to grind off the old number and stamp the correct number into the block, and stamp a -R behind it for replaced/rebuilt.


Travis
Topeka, Kansas

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:58 pm
by DanTreace
Travis

Ford Service Bulletin advise was to keep the original stamped number on the later blocks, as the number is the car identification, and most all states used that number for registration of Model T's.

Those later blocks have large enough boss to allow stamping the 'original' engine number, when changing out that original engine for a replacement used or rebuilt engine that has an existing engine number. That way nothing is ground off the numeral boss. It now has two numbers. One of them matches the title papers.

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Now if the Ford garage was replacing a busted block, and was rebuilding then a new engine, then Ford supplied new blocks that were blank, and Ford recommenced that the number from the old busted block be stamped on the new blank block. That preserved the original serial number.


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To be legal in your state you should investigate the laws.

I have had a 1919 complete engine , with replacement block, built for me before, and the rebuilder offered to sell me a block with current state title (he could do that in his state). I was replacing an incorrect later motor, but I didn't need to have the extra expense for a block and title to be legal in my state, so he sold me a block without a title.

Was simple for me to just replace the old motor with the new rebuilt.

FL allows the changing out of motor from your owned car, provided the car is 1955 and earlier, as there was no "VIN" at that time, only engine numbers for i.d., and the DMV just issues a new title with the new engine number.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:24 am
by Tom Hicks
From a legal perspective, in the Commonwealth of Virginia, it appears to me that there is no law regarding the restamping of numbers on a Model T engine, and the engine number has nothing legally to do with the VIN. I think I will put my initials, month, and year of rebuild on mine since they don't match the titles anyway.

But legal and ethical are not necessarily the same. I don't think there is ethically anything wrong with my initial and date system since it is not trying to represent the engine as something it is not.


If one were to change an engine number to appear correct so the engine would be correct for a particular car in order to increase the value of the car, i.e. it has the original engine in it, that would be legal from a DMV perspective, but fraud as one would trying to increase the value of the vehicle by lying about the engine being original to the vehicle.

And it does appear that different states have different laws.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:57 am
by George Andreasen
I live in probably one of the WORST states when it comes to simple vehicle registration. Everything is viewed as a potential stolen Corvette. DMV employees are usually suspicious and will quote the rule book instead of using common sense.....and of course NONE of them are old enough to know that the T used the engine number for a VIN. The Highway Patrol is usually asked to verify any questionable VIN number, since the offices are close to each other.

Having said that, I have a 1918 block that must have been taken out of a car for replacement by another as the number pad has been heavily chiseled, almost to the point of being useless. I have obtained another viable number from a 1918 block which has been junked and will grind, then restamp my block with the junk block's number. The car's frame (a speedster) will also have a matching number.

In other words lack of knowledge on the DMV's part forces you to be "creative" in order to license an ordinary, legal antique car.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:22 am
by fliverfan
As long as one is inclined, out of necessity, to create or restamp a VIN why not just use the numbers already on the engine and add current Ford VIN codes (1981- now, country of origin, model year, vehicle type, etc.) until you have a 17 digit number? There's no way it be confused with the original, would provide more vehicle information and be up to date. Engine numbers as a VIN haven't been used in the USA since 1953. From 54-81 there was no standard VIN format.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:51 am
by fxlew
Be careful if you want to use a current 17 digit VIN format. There is a formula created check digit in all 17 character VIN numbers. That check digit exists so that no one can create a VIN number, as without the secret formula there is no way to know what that check digit needs to be. I am not aware of any entity outside of vehicle OEMs that has the capability to produce a 17 digit VIN with a correct check digit.

I don't know if the registering agency would identify (find) a made up VIN during the registration process because they find a bad check digit. If they did, I would think they would almost have to flag a vehicle as stolen or ? because it clearly has a fake VIN. I would not recommend trying to make a "current style" VIN for this reason.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:02 am
by Derek Kiefer
Anything other than a proper Model T serial number stamped on the block would be a red-flag for me as a buyer. Maybe not a deal-breaker, but definitely a red-flag.

Incorrect stampings, made-up body tags, and other home-made identifications that are obviously not original all create a question of validity that could cause problems getting or transferring a title later on down the road if your car is inspected by someone who knows anything about old cars.

Grind the pad, stamp the number, make it look like the factory did it, and keep your mouth shut about it at the DMV.

Re: Restamping engine numbers

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:01 am
by fliverfan
fxlew wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:51 am
Be careful if you want to use a current 17 digit VIN format...
The purpose of the exercise was to remain within the spirit of the law and provide less confusion to future owners. If 17 digits is a deal breaker then use 16. Also, since these vehicles are from the stone age, the YOM contained within the format could be shown using Roman Numerals. :D

Don't know what it is about this place. A year ago I was considering buying a T. Now, whenever I see one it's draped in a huge red flag.