Charging Journey.......

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CatGuy
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Charging Journey.......

Post by CatGuy » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:33 am

Well, it's been hot so I've been chipping away as I can. The garage is usually around 100 in the evenings. I did manage to find a guy that could, and did weld the wheel studs on. I know the best thing would have been all new (3 at least) hubs, but that would have been expensive.
As for the charging system.......still stumped. As you may recall the car ('26 Roadster) would start fine, quick and never had an issue with that since I bought it in April. A few months ago I noticed that when I turned the lights on while driving the Ammeter showed 'Charge'. That was it, either 'Charge' or '0'. I checked and found that the wires were connected properly. (I have checked the whole wiring harness and it seems right, but might check it again) I switched them around and now with the lights on it will read 'Discharge'. It's either going to read 'Discharge' or '0' and that's it. Doesn't matter if the lights are on or off. Car running or not. I checked the generator via the 'Model T' book and found no output from the generator. I replaced the generator with a rebuilt one from Birdhaven. I believe it worked (very briefly) then quit. I checked it the same, as well. I didn't use a voltmeter at the time. Since then Birdhaven has replaced that generator with a new 6volt alternator. (Birdhaven has been very good and helpful for me! I'll do more business with him) With the alternator in place I still don't see a 'Charge' reading. Last night I checked (with a voltmeter) the battery before I started the car and it was 6volts. I checked it with it running and the lights on and it was 5.80 volts at idle. I checked it with the lights on and higher RPMs and it was 5.87 volts. I know the wire to the alternator is live.
So, what next? Maybe it's charging just fine? Maybe the Ammeter is bad? Sorry this is long.
P.S. I'm a full believer in the Optima Battery! It hasn't been charged via an exterior charger this whole summer!

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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by ironhorse » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:00 am

Where are you checking the voltage? I check mine across the battery terminals. Have you checked all of the ground (Earth) connections? The ground to the frame from the battery is the most important then the ground from the ammeter to the dash all ground connections should be cleaned by wire brushing and maybe a little dab of Di-electric grease to prevent corrosion. I have spent too many hours chasing down an electrical problem that turned out to be a bad ground. Good luck!
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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:05 am

It's impossible to reliably diagnose your electrical issues from here, but I will offer my opinions: (1) The generator you started out with may have failed due to a bad connection in the wiring between the generator and the battery or in the ammeter, or a bad cutout. A completely dead battery could also cause the generator to fail. (2) It is likely that the replacement rebuilt generator failed for the same reason. (open circuit) (3) Your ammeter may be bad, and it's possible that it damaged the rebuilt generator. (4) A bad connection anywhere in the wiring between the generator and the battery will cause the generator to burn out. The bad connection could be within the cutout or the ammeter, or anywhere in the wiring. Running the engine without a good battery connected will burn out the generator. A bad connection may be intermittent, that is, it may come and go. (5) As far as I know, running the alternator with a bad connection will not damage the alternator. It appears likley from here that your ammeter is bad. I'd replace it. (6) An internally-regulated alternator may take a minute or two to begin charging. It may not charge at idle speeds on a Model T.


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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:13 am

The ammeter does NOT need to be grounded. The terminals and internal parts of the ammeter must NOT be grounded! The cutout does need to be grounded to the generator case. The engine needs to be grounded to the frame, and as stated above, the battery needs a good ground to the frame. All wiring and cables need to be good quality and full gauge. All terminals and connectors must be clean, bright, bare metal where they make electrical contact.

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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:15 am

Your ammeter is bad - read this recent link you have the same symptoms and when the ammeter was replaced all was good again
https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30845
--
Stop confusing yourself just get another ammeter
--
There was an old thread that described the cause of the ammeter failure. The internal parts include a magnet that over time, like those in a magneto, may loose their magnetism and then t hey often show a positive reading regardless of how they are wired up . You can purchase another one, 2" diameter, from your local automotive or farm supplier or Birdhaven (30miles away) for less than $15. NOW these small ammeters are voltage independent and will work on 6 or 12 volt. Ones marked for 12 volt are because they include a lite which you don't need to connect to, requires an additional wire. If you do want it you just need a bulb to match the socket and your voltage, plus wiring to the DIM connection on the ignition switch
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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by John kuehn » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:37 am

I did read in your first post that the car was running OK and starting OK. Was it running the battery down? After a few days or weeks did it still start OK? It seems like it was reading through your thread.

If it was starting and the battery wasn’t going down it must be something with the amp meter itself. I have never completely relied on what the amp meter says anyway. I have 3 T’s that run and start OK and as long as they do that I’m OK. Sometimes you can start to overthink this and that with 100 year old technology.


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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by CatGuy » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:01 am

John kuehn wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:37 am
I did read in your first post that the car was running OK and starting OK. Was it running the battery down? After a few days or weeks did it still start OK? It seems like it was reading through your thread.

If it was starting and the battery wasn’t going down it must be something with the amp meter itself. I have never completely relied on what the amp meter says anyway. I have 3 T’s that run and start OK and as long as they do that I’m OK. Sometimes you can start to overthink this and that with 100 year old technology.
I do wonder about this. It's never giving me any trouble starting. Ever. The battery is never run down. I may be overthinking it. Perhaps I should just buy an Ammeter and see what that does.


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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by CatGuy » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:09 am

ironhorse wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:00 am
Where are you checking the voltage? I check mine across the battery terminals. Have you checked all of the ground (Earth) connections? The ground to the frame from the battery is the most important then the ground from the ammeter to the dash all ground connections should be cleaned by wire brushing and maybe a little dab of Di-electric grease to prevent corrosion. I have spent too many hours chasing down an electrical problem that turned out to be a bad ground. Good luck!
I have checked the voltage across the battery terminals. As of yet I haven't taken the connections apart and cleaned them. Maybe this week.

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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:43 am

CatGuy wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:33 am
Well, it's been hot so I've been chipping away as I can. The garage is usually around 100 in the evenings. I did manage to find a guy that could, and did weld the wheel studs on. I know the best thing would have been all new (3 at least) hubs, but that would have been expensive.
As for the charging system.......still stumped. As you may recall the car ('26 Roadster) would start fine, quick and never had an issue with that since I bought it in April. A few months ago I noticed that when I turned the lights on while driving the Ammeter showed 'Charge'. That was it, either 'Charge' or '0'. I checked and found that the wires were connected properly. (I have checked the whole wiring harness and it seems right, but might check it again) I switched them around and now with the lights on it will read 'Discharge'. It's either going to read 'Discharge' or '0' and that's it. Doesn't matter if the lights are on or off. Car running or not. I checked the generator via the 'Model T' book and found no output from the generator. I replaced the generator with a rebuilt one from Birdhaven. I believe it worked (very briefly) then quit. I checked it the same, as well. I didn't use a voltmeter at the time. Since then Birdhaven has replaced that generator with a new 6volt alternator. (Birdhaven has been very good and helpful for me! I'll do more business with him) With the alternator in place I still don't see a 'Charge' reading. Last night I checked (with a voltmeter) the battery before I started the car and it was 6volts. I checked it with it running and the lights on and it was 5.80 volts at idle. I checked it with the lights on and higher RPMs and it was 5.87 volts. I know the wire to the alternator is live.
So, what next? Maybe it's charging just fine? Maybe the Ammeter is bad? Sorry this is long.
P.S. I'm a full believer in the Optima Battery! It hasn't been charged via an exterior charger this whole summer!
Time is money and so is replacing a generator with an alternator. So the solution to your initial problem with a generator may have been to just replace the ammeter. But now you may now have a slightly different issue in replacing the ammeter with another. Still a simple fix but you'll need to get one that can handle the amperage range (+70 amps) being produced by your alternator. You might be able to get by with one that has a range of +35 or 60amps. NOTE:The Delco alternator is rated at 70 amps when used on a modern car. It will easily produce up to 20-35 amps on the lower RPM Model T engine.
For the most part automotive ammeters are voltage independent. Again if it says 12volts its likely because it has a lite.
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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by CatGuy » Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:07 pm

One thing I didn't think of that a guy just brought up to me is that one sure way to tell if the charging system is working or not is to disconnect the battery cable while it's running. Would that work here? I would do it only briefly. No, the magneto doesn't work.


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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:57 pm

Disconnecting the battery (with no magneto) should kill the engine. I would disconnect the ground cable. Do this in a well ventilated area. Batteries can emit explosive hydrogen. An Optima type battery would (probably) not normally emit hydrogen, but better safe than sorry. It would be better to obatain a working ammeter, which will give you a much better idea of what is going on.


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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by CatGuy » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:14 pm

Is there a recommended new Ammeter out there? I hear some can be....junk.....


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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:19 pm

Most of them are junky, but most will do an adequate job, at least for a while. Just get one that will fit and install it.

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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:21 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:19 pm
Most of them are junky, but most will do an adequate job, at least for a while. Just get one that will fit and install it.
The word fit needs to include both the required diameter 2" - 2-1/8" and the amperage output of his new alternator 25-30 amps
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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:25 pm

Good point. Most any auto parts store ought to have a basic 40-0-40 or 60-0-60 ammeter.

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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:33 pm

CatGuy wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:07 pm
One thing I didn't think of that a guy just brought up to me is that one sure way to tell if the charging system is working or not is to disconnect the battery cable while it's running. Would that work here? I would do it only briefly. No, the magneto doesn't work.
That is one way to to tell if the car is only using the battery. But look at the wiring diagram. The Battery is connected to the ammeter and the ammeter is connected to the ignition switch. So if you start your T on battery there is a connection from the switch through the ammeter to battery regardless of what the pointer on the ammeter is indicating. When the generator or ammeter is connected to the ignition switch power is then available from this source once the engine is running. Note that there is a jumper on the ignition switch that connects the generator/alternator to the ammeter to the battery. Since these are all connected and you said the wire from the alternator is live, that voltage needs to be about 7+ volts to charge your battery. If you want to disconnect the battery be careful and expect a spark or two. Amperage kills not voltage
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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:16 pm

Another way to see if it is charging is to test it with a voltmeter, like a dozen or so guys have suggested over the past 6 months...or simply check the wiring for correct, complete connections and ensuring all grounds are sound. I seem to recall that even Ron Patterson has weighed in on this and clearly you did not take the opportunity to work with him and bring this issue to conclusion. That was a significant missed opportunity.

It is one thing to be honestly uneducated in all things electrical and there is certainly no shame in it, but to have multiple threads dedicated to this drama while ignoring a plethora of perfectly good advice given for months on end, only provides opportunities for genius suggestions like "disconnect the battery".

I do wish you the very best, and feel for you that this has dragged on for so long. I'm sure you'll solve it eventually, and hopefully without burning up any more vendors' generators or burning the garage down...please do yourself a favor and go back and review advice regarding checking your wiring, and how to test for charge output...everything you ever needed to know, and step-by-step process advice has been given in the past.

While you may wish to take this as mean spirited, I hope you do not, as I assure you it is not intended as that...only to encourage you to take the great advice you've received in the past and put it to work, as there are no magic bullets to fix this and you've already been given the information to put this in your rear view mirror and move on to something else.
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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by CatGuy » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:50 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:16 pm
Another way to see if it is charging is to test it with a voltmeter, like a dozen or so guys have suggested over the past 6 months...or simply check the wiring for correct, complete connections and ensuring all grounds are sound. I seem to recall that even Ron Patterson has weighed in on this and clearly you did not take the opportunity to work with him and bring this issue to conclusion. That was a significant missed opportunity.

It is one thing to be honestly uneducated in all things electrical and there is certainly no shame in it, but to have multiple threads dedicated to this drama while ignoring a plethora of perfectly good advice given for months on end, only provides opportunities for genius suggestions like "disconnect the battery".

I do wish you the very best, and feel for you that this has dragged on for so long. I'm sure you'll solve it eventually, and hopefully without burning up any more vendors' generators or burning the garage down...please do yourself a favor and go back and review advice regarding checking your wiring, and how to test for charge output...everything you ever needed to know, and step-by-step process advice has been given in the past.

While you may wish to take this as mean spirited, I hope you do not, as I assure you it is not intended as that...only to encourage you to take the great advice you've received in the past and put it to work, as there are no magic bullets to fix this and you've already been given the information to put this in your rear view mirror and move on to something else.
I did test it via a voltmeter like I posted this morning. I have checked the connections. The diagrams line up with the way it was wired. I'm not saying that I did or didn't burn up any generators or alternators. I never saw or smelled smoke. This response of yours is why I was hesitant to write anything this morning. It's also why I'm glad there is a 'Foe' option.


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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by speedytinc » Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:36 pm

CatGuy wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:50 pm
Scott_Conger wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:16 pm
Another way to see if it is charging is to test it with a voltmeter, like a dozen or so guys have suggested over the past 6 months...or simply check the wiring for correct, complete connections and ensuring all grounds are sound. I seem to recall that even Ron Patterson has weighed in on this and clearly you did not take the opportunity to work with him and bring this issue to conclusion. That was a significant missed opportunity.

It is one thing to be honestly uneducated in all things electrical and there is certainly no shame in it, but to have multiple threads dedicated to this drama while ignoring a plethora of perfectly good advice given for months on end, only provides opportunities for genius suggestions like "disconnect the battery".

I do wish you the very best, and feel for you that this has dragged on for so long. I'm sure you'll solve it eventually, and hopefully without burning up any more vendors' generators or burning the garage down...please do yourself a favor and go back and review advice regarding checking your wiring, and how to test for charge output...everything you ever needed to know, and step-by-step process advice has been given in the past.

While you may wish to take this as mean spirited, I hope you do not, as I assure you it is not intended as that...only to encourage you to take the great advice you've received in the past and put it to work, as there are no magic bullets to fix this and you've already been given the information to put this in your rear view mirror and move on to something else.
I did test it via a voltmeter like I posted this morning. I have checked the connections. The diagrams line up with the way it was wired. I'm not saying that I did or didn't burn up any generators or alternators. I never saw or smelled smoke. This response of yours is why I was hesitant to write anything this morning. It's also why I'm glad there is a 'Foe' option.

Your charging issue has been a frustration to me also. I know if I had your T in my hands it would take 30 minutes or less to fix.
You have been given the correct answers early on.

Scott has posted much of what I would have, but dont have the energy/patience to pound my head against the wall. I just tune out. Keeps me out of unnecessary trouble.

IMO His helpful advice from a vast pool of knowledge & experience is not to be ignored. I have learned to respect his knowledge & appreciate his direct approach. You are of the "offended" now. If you dont want the correct answer/diagnosis of your problems, why do you ask us? Its a waste of all our time.

Adding Scott to your growing foe list will be doing him a favor & CUTTING YOUR OWN THROAT.

A model T is a mechanic's or rich guy's toy. Not everyone has what it takes to maintain such a beast. Pliers & bailing wire is a silly myth.
This forum will give you all the advice you need, if you listen.
You may not have the aptitude or enough local friends to own/maintain/operate your model T.

Best of luck to you.


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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by CatGuy » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:03 pm

At this point I would gladly pay someone gas, food & lodging to come help me fix this.

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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:47 pm

CatGuy wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:03 pm
At this point I would gladly pay someone gas, food & lodging to come help me fix this.
I'm seriously thinking about it, may pick up some parts at Birdhaven if they have them. I'm 2-1/2 hours to the East on I-80
No pay, just some of Pella's Tulip bulbs. Need to see what I got going, may be able to go in two weeks.
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Re: Charging Journey.......

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:13 am

Scott, even if you construe the other Scott's remarks as somehow unfriendly or offensive, pay attention to his advice. When it comes to Model T's, he knows his stuff. It's smart to take his suggestions seriously.
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