1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
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Topic author - Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:54 am
- First Name: G
- Last Name: Martin
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Northville, MI
1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
Hi all, I’m trying to scour the internet for information on what the correct wheels would be for an early 1917 (Feb 1917). My car currently has square felloe and pointed spokes on 3-of-4 wheels, and one of the rears is a rounded felloe with rounded spokes. From best I can tell from Ford archives, square felloe wheels didn’t come in until late 1918, but I also don’t know if I’ve ever seen a 1917 with rounded spokes. My understanding is that 1917 should have the pointed spokes and rounded felloes—and rounded spokes and square felloes were later on.
Figured I’d ask the “T” community what type wheels they have on their late 1916 and 1917 cars in hopes of confirming what I should have!
Also, while writing, I found that one of my front hubs has Ford script on it—did all wheel manufacturers use the Ford script on their hubs?
Figured I’d ask the “T” community what type wheels they have on their late 1916 and 1917 cars in hopes of confirming what I should have!
Also, while writing, I found that one of my front hubs has Ford script on it—did all wheel manufacturers use the Ford script on their hubs?
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- First Name: Scott
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Re: 1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
a good way to find info an a "T" topic is to go to your search engine and type "MTFCA your subject"
https://www.mtfca.com/model_t_encyclopedia/u-z/
"...The felloes were changed to square instead of being rounded, apparently in late 1917 or early 1918 according to a letter dated April 16, 1918 at the Ford Archives."
"On July 14, 1921 The shape of the spokes was specified as being round instead of oval in cross section."
https://www.mtfca.com/model_t_encyclopedia/u-z/
"...The felloes were changed to square instead of being rounded, apparently in late 1917 or early 1918 according to a letter dated April 16, 1918 at the Ford Archives."
"On July 14, 1921 The shape of the spokes was specified as being round instead of oval in cross section."
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Topic author - Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:54 am
- First Name: G
- Last Name: Martin
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Northville, MI
Re: 1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
Thanks Scott—those two quotes were exactly why I was stumped as my car otherwise is an unrestored original. Unfortunately the wheels all are worn enough to warrant replacement—but wanted to ensure if I’m going to go through that process, I’d to get the “correct” wheels built.
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- Posts: 6428
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
- First Name: Scott
- Last Name: Conger
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
- Location: Clark, WY
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: 1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
I've seen enough wheels like your 4th one to conclude that the above quote means that round spokes were now the ONLY spokes in production (in July 1921), and not to believe that they were not for a good time "alternate" spokes in production previous to that date. Considering your car's vintage, you may well be looking at all 4 wheels as being original to the car if available stock was being used up during its assembly. All that aside, if it was my car, I'd go with the rounded felloes on all 4 corners when you have them rebuilt. They will look very nice."On July 14, 1921 The shape of the spokes was specified as being round instead of oval in cross section."
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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- First Name: Kevin
- Last Name: Matthiesen
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Re: 1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
Because your front wheels are now square felloe and that type wheel was used into the 1920’s on nonstarter cars. When you rebuild your wheels as oval spoke, round felloe, make sure to use the correct 1917 ball bearing front hubs that may not be in the square felloe wheels that you have.
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- Posts: 850
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- First Name: Erik
- Last Name: Johnson
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
Re: 1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
1917 Fords had round felloe wheels from the factory.
First photo: my unrestored May 1917 roadster has it's original round felloe rear wheels. The front wheels are 30x3.5 square felloe and I can only surmise that, because the original owner drover the car until 1947, he replaced the front wheels because 30x3.5 tires were easier to obtain than 30x3 tires.
Second photo: the June 1917 unrestored "Rip van Winkle" touring has round felloe wheels all around.
Third photo: my dad's restored July 1917 touring, which he bought in original, unrestored condition from the original family in 1949, has round felloe wheels all around, although only three are factory original to the car as my father had to replace one of them due to condition issues. July 1917 is the last month of the 1917 model year.
NOTE: all three cars above have known histories and were originally sold new to Minnesota to residents who lived within 50 miles of Minneapolis so they most likely were all assembled at the Ford plant at 409 N 5th Ave in Minneapolis.
First photo: my unrestored May 1917 roadster has it's original round felloe rear wheels. The front wheels are 30x3.5 square felloe and I can only surmise that, because the original owner drover the car until 1947, he replaced the front wheels because 30x3.5 tires were easier to obtain than 30x3 tires.
Second photo: the June 1917 unrestored "Rip van Winkle" touring has round felloe wheels all around.
Third photo: my dad's restored July 1917 touring, which he bought in original, unrestored condition from the original family in 1949, has round felloe wheels all around, although only three are factory original to the car as my father had to replace one of them due to condition issues. July 1917 is the last month of the 1917 model year.
NOTE: all three cars above have known histories and were originally sold new to Minnesota to residents who lived within 50 miles of Minneapolis so they most likely were all assembled at the Ford plant at 409 N 5th Ave in Minneapolis.
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- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Jelf
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Re: 1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
I believe all the wheel makers used the same Ford hubs. Even though Ford quit supplying speedometers in 1915, the 17-18 front hubs have the machined flange and three screw holes for mounting a speedometer gear. Ball bearing cups have a high profile so they can easily be removed without the notches that were added to 1919 and later hubs. It's 99⁴⁴⁄₁₀₀% likely that you will be using Timken bearings, as some of the ball bearing parts are made of unobtainium. I added notches to my 17-18 front hubs for that reason.
Timken cup height.
Timken cup height.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Topic author - Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:54 am
- First Name: G
- Last Name: Martin
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Northville, MI
Re: 1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
Thanks for the fantastic feedback! Pictures are all very much appreciated as well. This is the first “T” that I’m restoring so the kindness and helpfulness of this group is even that much more appreciated! I’m loving being a part of this community!
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Topic author - Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:54 am
- First Name: G
- Last Name: Martin
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
- Location: Northville, MI
Re: 1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
Erik, for your May 1917 Roadster, what felloe joining plates are on your rear wheels? Those look exactly like my one rear wheel!
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Re: 1917 Model T Hub & Wheel Questions
Final opinion first. Your square felloe wheel was most likely changed onto the car at some point in the past. I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that square felloes were used before mid to late 1917 model year (maybe about June 1917?). So your February 1917 should have the earlier style.
This is one of those changes that apparently had a fairly long crossover time. I have seen several era photos showing round felloe wheels on clearly 1918 model cars, and it might be possible that even a few 1919s may have had them. Of course, it is also possible that some of those photos could have been of cars that had wheels changed?
The shape of the spokes I have a bit of a problem with. I have numerous times read the information as mentioned by Scott C and others, indicating the shift to round spokes being done around 1918. That would make them seem primarily a square felloe feature. However, for whatever reason, I have seen a lot original round felloe wheels with very round profile spokes. MOST of the original round felloe wheels I have had over the years had round spokes.
True, maybe the wheels were redone at some point and the spokes changed? However it seems unlikely that would be the case for that many of the few wheels I have had over the years. Based upon my empirical observations, I would think a lot of wheels for a few years before 1918 must have had round spokes.
Spoke profiles did expand to more and more round over several of the brass era years. 1909 and 1910 had thinner and somewhat tear-drop shaped spokes. They widened a bit at a time through 1912 and into 1913 from what I have seen. Although some spokes still had a slight oval profile through the late brass era cars? There seem to me to be a lot of really round spokes through those years as well. I would speculate that the wheel manufacturers were cutting time to meet production demands and rounding the spokes before Ford specified the change. But that is pure speculation on my part.
Most square wood felloe wheels had slightly larger round and slightly different length spokes. I don't offhand recall which are longer or shorter, and the difference is only about an eighth of an inch. It has been a few years now since I restored enough wheels for two and half cars, so I am forgetting details. I do recall in mixing and matching spokes for wheels that I could sometimes use the longer ones to my advantage. And also that I had to make certain I didn't end up with "clown car wheels"! I did shave some square felloes to make good looking round felloe wheels (SHH, don't tell anyone!).
My observations and opinions. For whatever they are worth.
This is one of those changes that apparently had a fairly long crossover time. I have seen several era photos showing round felloe wheels on clearly 1918 model cars, and it might be possible that even a few 1919s may have had them. Of course, it is also possible that some of those photos could have been of cars that had wheels changed?
The shape of the spokes I have a bit of a problem with. I have numerous times read the information as mentioned by Scott C and others, indicating the shift to round spokes being done around 1918. That would make them seem primarily a square felloe feature. However, for whatever reason, I have seen a lot original round felloe wheels with very round profile spokes. MOST of the original round felloe wheels I have had over the years had round spokes.
True, maybe the wheels were redone at some point and the spokes changed? However it seems unlikely that would be the case for that many of the few wheels I have had over the years. Based upon my empirical observations, I would think a lot of wheels for a few years before 1918 must have had round spokes.
Spoke profiles did expand to more and more round over several of the brass era years. 1909 and 1910 had thinner and somewhat tear-drop shaped spokes. They widened a bit at a time through 1912 and into 1913 from what I have seen. Although some spokes still had a slight oval profile through the late brass era cars? There seem to me to be a lot of really round spokes through those years as well. I would speculate that the wheel manufacturers were cutting time to meet production demands and rounding the spokes before Ford specified the change. But that is pure speculation on my part.
Most square wood felloe wheels had slightly larger round and slightly different length spokes. I don't offhand recall which are longer or shorter, and the difference is only about an eighth of an inch. It has been a few years now since I restored enough wheels for two and half cars, so I am forgetting details. I do recall in mixing and matching spokes for wheels that I could sometimes use the longer ones to my advantage. And also that I had to make certain I didn't end up with "clown car wheels"! I did shave some square felloes to make good looking round felloe wheels (SHH, don't tell anyone!).
My observations and opinions. For whatever they are worth.