MTFCA Forum

My first car was a Model A. It's brakes were never properly adjusted and the Ts stop much better than it did. I was able to descend a long, steep hill using the small drum brakes (steel on steel) alternating with the band brake. It did wear a lot but definitely slowed the car. The bad rap comes from folks used to modern car brakes. Planning stops and slowing a bit before applying them seems to be adequate for light traffic. Fast Ts probably need some additional stopping power.
The more you drive them the better you get at it.
Rich

As a kid, I took the Model T at face value. The fact that the "service brake" could easily lock up the rear wheels made me aware that braking was no better than rear wheel traction, and the car would have to be driven accordingly. This observation based on a light roadster body. A sedan would likely pose a different problem. My current Lizzie has Rockymountain brakes, and I notice a bit more ease in the pedal and positive response, which is nice to have.

I do fine with the factory transmission brake, but I do wish traffic lights around me had a longer yellow. I've formed the habit of slowing down as I approach a green light, just in case it turns yellow. Never enough time to engine brake

You said it Steve!
It depends on speed and how and where you drive it. That’s the key. That’s the issue with learning to drive a T in the Modern era so to speak. No it’s not to bad if speed and its the right area where you drive and stop it.
But when a new driver pulls out on a main road with cars running by 55-75 mph that’s not a smart thing to do. That’s when you find out what a T can’t do.

My father always referred to model T brakes as "Push and Pray"!

A couple pointers. The parking brake should never be used unless you are in low gear, because the parking brake puts the transmission in neutral so defeats the compression braking of the engine unless you are in low gear.

Next point. A Ruckstell should be shifted into low before you get to a hill too steep to stop with the transmission brake. so shift down before you start descending the steep grade. The Ruckstell actully amplifies the power of the transmission brake. So it works with both engine braking and transmission braking. The outside Rocky mountain brakes will reduce wear on the transmission brake.
Norm

The parking brake should never be used unless you are in low gear, because the parking brake puts the transmission in neutral so defeats the compression braking of the engine unless you are in low gear.

I've never understood that. One way or the other, whether it's with the handle or the low pedal, you're going to neutral when you stop, and either way stops engine braking.

Using the low pedal is using the engine for a brake.
"The parking brake should never be used unless you are in low gear" not so. In high gear using the park brake for a few moments lets the engine slow down so that when it's released the engine braking is more effective until it regains a higher RPM. The same is true when releasing the low pedal to let oil in. The engine slows and is more effective when it is applied. The brake band can be applied in between but only with the two brakes released. Alternating between the 3 keeps any one from getting too hot. Using the parking brake with low band makes them fight each other.
That's how I look at it.
Rich

To me, a T's brakes make driving it exciting! (that's not sarcasm)

Scores a number 3 on the list of Model T myths...

1. they were all black
2. 6 volt systems are inferior
3. brakes are useless
4. it was the first mass produced car
5. Ford invented the assembly line

Scores a number 3 on the list of Model T myths...

You forgot that a disturbutor is more reliable.

What I mean by using low is not slipping it as a brake, but holding it down to use the engine compression braking. This would, of course, be done after you get slowed down enough for normal low gear use. You might need to give it some gas at first to get the engine revved up to shift into low and then immediately push the throttle all the way up. Now hold the low pedal down firm and alternate between the brake pedal and hand lever without letting up the low pedal. It is only in neutral if neither high nor low. which would be lever part way back and or pedal half way down.
Of course, in a true emergency, you might need to use all three pedals and the parking brake and pray.
Norm

SteveD wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:17 pm

I do fine with the factory transmission brake, but I do wish traffic lights around me had a longer yellow. I've formed the habit of slowing down as I approach a green light, just in case it turns yellow. Never enough time to engine brake

I feel the same way! always anticipating the next catastrophe that could happen. Mine comes from years of driving farm machinery on public roads. I drive all our cars that way. ( drives the wife crazy) a few of my close farm friends call our selves “pappy putters” I guess some how I’ve been groomed for T driving for a long time. Brakes are overrated “Keep American rural”
Bryant

Then why are them ugly disk brakes so revered by so many?

I have never thought the Model T brakes were a design fault, as far as the Improved Ford is concerned. It's one of the reasons I decided on a 26.
The 11" drums with lined shoes work just fine. Any improvement would require wider tyres and front brakes; not any modification to the existing brakes.
I drive fast, and live in very hilly area and have yet to find the brakes inadequate.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:47 pm

Then why are them ugly disk brakes so revered by so many?

Maybe a solution would be a brake drum cover to hide them? May have to get crafty. If its a look over function a little ”smoke and mirrors” action may be at hand.

I used the stock brakes on my 25 touring for a couple years when I lived on the outskirts of Indianapolis. Flat country with little traffic where I was. All was good.

Then I moved to the Seattle metropolitan area. Hills and traffic abound and then the rain. I added Rocky Mountain brakes and learned to keep them dry and not count on them in reverse. They were an OK solution at the time when nothing better was readily available. That car eventually moved on.

Skip forward to my speedster where I decided I wanted 4 wheel brakes in order to drive the way I wanted. It has 4 wheel hydraulic brakes with iron brake drums. They work fine but of course are not correct.

I believe the disk brakes, while ugly, are the best brake for those folks who face a combination of hills, traffic and potential rain. They are easy to modulate and work fine when wet as well as in reverse. If I were to get another stock T it would get disk brakes in a flash.

The hobby is big enough, of course, to accommodate everyone. But I always question why folks who want to go fast have a Model T instead of a Corvette?

I grew up in Northeast Ohio, basically flat, Model T factory brakes just fine. I then had Model T's in Wilmington, North Carolina, pancake flat, factory brakes just fine. I now live in Western North Carolina, mountains and endless rain. Factory brakes are just fine (Kevlar linings). The big trick is to always remember to go down the mountain in the same gear used to go up, i.e. remembering to shift into low speed. OK, it may not be thrilling and there may be another line of modern cars stacked up behind, but at least you reach the bottom alive.

And now a serious question: My 1910 Buick Model 10 uses a Bosch DU-4 magneto with an impulse drive (impulse drive supposedly makes it easier to start when hand cranking). On a Buick Forum it was suggested that the impulse drive has a disadvantage in that it has an internal spark advance, with the consequence that the slowest engine speed cannot be obtained for decelerating, or going down hills. This comment raised the question in my mind: when going downhill or decelerating, should we T people be retarding the spark to obtain the slowest engine speed and thus the best engine braking? I often retard the spark when lugging up a hill to help prevent joining the two-piece-crankshaft club, but it never occurred to me to retard the spark for braking or decelerating. Anybody have any experience? Will we break something by retarding the spark for slowing? Will retarding the spark actually result in better compression braking?

Any braking advantage from retarding the spark would be minimal. Over advancing the spark at very low engine speeds would give more braking effect, but I wouldn't do it due to stresses involved. Engine braking effect is a result of friction and the retarding effect on the piston movement caused by high intake manifold vacuum with a closed throttle. Engine compression plays a role, but compression pressure is limited with the throttle closed, and even with the ignition off (not recommended) and with no combustion occuring, much of the energy consumed by compression is returned to the crankshaft when the piston passes top dead center and any compression pressure in the cylinder acts to push the piston down. For best engine braking, be sure that your engine is tight, and that your throttle plate closes as tightly as practical. (Low idle speed setting) Retarding the spark may give some slight additional braking, but a tight engine in good tune with a low idle setting is the main factor. Note that at higher altitudes, engine braking effect is reduced. Adding some method of restricting the exhaust would increase engine braking, but it would have to be very well thought out not to cause more problems than it cured, and the operator would need to know how and when to use it. A better enhancement for engine braking would be to rig up a spring-loaded idle stop that would hold the throttle at the normal idle setting unless more engine braking was needed, in which case the operator could push the throttle lever up against the spring pressure and cause the throttle plate to close completely. This would have to be a precision device to allow complete closing of the throttle plate, but without jamming and damaging the throttle plate. Closing the choke plate is not an acceptable alternative due to the massive flooding it would cause, which would cause serious problems, and possibley even seized pistons.

A problem with retarding the spark when compression braking is the unburnt going into the exhaust system. If you could completely shut off the gas it would be better. The "backfiring" you get going downhill with the spark retarded, could actually damage the exhaust system.
Norm

My 27 Roadster still has the stock transmission brake. I’ve driven farm tractors since I was about 13, I’m 58 now and I’m still on the road with a tractor at my work. I’ve always understood while operating a farm tractor you have to plan ahead, ALWAYS. My biggest issue with driving a Model T, just as a tractor is the other people on the road. I’ve had several near misses on a tractor, so far none with the T. Most people don’t understand, or care that there’s a slow moving vehicle in front of them. They most certainly DO NOT understand hand signals !!!! That being said I plan on adding accessory brakes in the future.

"Then why are them ugly disk brakes so revered by so many?"

I'd be willing to bet that nearly 100% of Model Ts on the road today do not have disc brakes...

The model T from the factory was engineered simplicity and performs very well when driven as designed. They would not have sold 15 million if it was inferior. Whether you drive a model T or a Lamborghini, you are asking for trouble if your expectations go beyond its designed capabilities.

The later Model Ts with the larger, lined parking/emergency brakes and larger transmission brake can generate more stopping power than the tires and chassis can apply to the road in an emergency stop. What even the late brakes and improved transmission brake cannot do is dissipate a lot of heat over a longer period of time, such as making a long, steep descent in mountain country. They will overheat if the operator does not know how to use ALL the Model Ts braking resources to the best advantage. It is of paramount importance to keep all of any Model Ts braking equipment in good condition and good adjustment, and to recognize its limits. That includes keeping the engine in tune and in good condition and all linkages in good condition and adjusted properly. A well-tuned engine capable of a slow, smooth idle can take a lot of pressure off the brakes, if the driver uses it to the best advantage. At higher altitudes, both engine braking and brake cooling capability are reduced. Drive accordingly. Auxilliary brakes are useful, but the brake drums will still overheat under extended braking. Disc brakes or any other rear wheel only brake modifications will not increase emergency stopping power, since that is limited by tire traction. Disc brakes can get rid of heat far better than the T drum brakes, but they do nothing to improve tire traction.

katjack78 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:42 pm

My father always referred to model T brakes as "Push and Pray"!

As a kid we referred to any mechanical brake system as "Press and pray". I agree that the standard model T brake is adequate for the car in relatively flat terrain. With a direct drive 4:1 gear ratio, engine braking is quite effective.

In my experience the standard Model T braking system is totally adequate once you get accustomed to it. That being said, I sure love my "ugly" disk brakes when the infrequent panic stop is needed. They have allowed me to avoid a number of acidents and I wouldn't drive my T without them.

In the teens & twenties for practicality & from a manufacturing stand point, the condition of the roads and the speeds driven the model T brake was very good. By todays roads and the way people drive I find 4 wheel non power drums inadequate.

Anyone can go fast in a Corvette!

According to Secrets of Speed. "It is very difficult indeed to obtain speeds of over 60 miles an hour from a Ford that is not equipped with a special ignition system. And it is foolish to waste too much time in other refinements, when the ignition system can so easily and cheaply put put into the high-speed class."

OK back to Aux. braking, if you never get within 200' of a modern car that the driver has a cell phone your probably OK with the brake it came with.
In a modern car a speed limit sign is a rule. In a model T it's a challenge.
Craig.

You can argue the need for either auxiliary brakes or at the very least good working emergency brakes, but I have lived it! In my 25 coupe, on a hilly state park road leading straight to a parking lot and water fall, it suffered a complete pinion bearing failure, losing two teeth from the pinion gear, and leaving us free wheeling, with emergency brakes that had been none functional for 60 years! My other choice was a 90 degree turn out the exit which probably would have ended in a roll over, with plate glass windows shattered and slicing! Fortunately, the driveshaft rotated enough for the pinion to catch and we slid to a stop! A chock under a rear wheel, and a call to a rollback wrecker ended the adventure. The rear end gave almost no warning, less than a quarter mile of noise! I rebuilt the rear end completely and installed good grease seals and lined brake shoes. I can now stop the car on a moderate hill with the hand brake. My next choice will be disc brakes. Our area is very hilly, and once was more than enough! I have to get rid of the plate glass too! The thrust bearings had been replace with brass in the early sixties, and were in great shape, and are still in the car. A fun projects pinion bearing went in as well.

You really need functional emergency brakes.

Steve,
congratulations on (probably) being the first among us to use 'apostacy' in a thread title.

I have no problem with the parking brake words when descending a very steep hill (the sort you don't have).
If you have your left foot hard down, so in low gear, and the revs are rising and running away, you can add right foot braking - and that's fine, but it means heat in the transmission, and/or you can pull on the parking brake and put heat out through the drums instead.
You can have all three. Left leg jammed, parking brake on to some degree, and with the footbrake giving you fine speed control.

The caution you quote relates to slowing in top gear when, as someone has already said, if you pull the brake on, you lose engine braking.

After having a near pants filling experience on a tour in the Tennessee mountains, steep downhill gravel roads, and getting stopped on severe inclines, due to stalled traffic in front of me, (and the car not wanting to hold) I decided to go with disk brakes. It seemed that most of the Tennessee T's members had them installed on their cars, and for a good reason.
Even in town, in traffic, when some nit wit, flies past you, pulls back into your lane, and then jams on his/her 4 wheel disk brakes rather than run the caution light, and you almost kiss the rear of his/her car with your T model, (that happened more than once, even with me trying to keep my distance in traffic) convinced me that while originality may win you trophies, the ability to panic stop is better.

Yes, all you hand wringing purists can wail about it all you like, but SAFETY FIRST is my priority.
I DRIVE both of my cars. I a college town full of cell phone occupied college students, and out on country roads.
I have put disk brakes on the rear of both of my T's. I now have the ability, (but would not do it) to panic stop and bang my wife's head into the windshield at low speeds. Before the disk brakes, she wouldn't even surge forward during panic braking. I'm 100% pleased with the stopping and holding ability of the disk brakes.

So criticize me all you like about not being a purist. I don't care.

You can panic-stop a Model T with stock brakes that are working properly. Driving in mountain country in situations requiring frequent stops or extended braking on long downslopes is another matter entirely.

The mass Wail-in and Brake Apostate Criticism Festival begins at 8 PM tonight. BYOB.

Steve-o,

As much as you educate yourself on the background of things...I think you missed the chapter on stopping????

Model T did NOT come with brakes until 26...what they came with prior was 'anti-roll-down hill' clamping devices located in the rear wheels.

Braking as such came from NOT exceeding 10 mph in the first place in high gear, then the momentum was such a deplorable thing that just depressing the clutch mid way brought the car usually to a quick stop, and for the final foot of distance you could use that thing called a braking pedal as what was later called a pony brake?



As a PS...One thing everyone misses in these long discourses is that for the mechanical EMERGENCY braking...you had better be absolutely sure the celvis end of the long rod is exactly the same on BOTH sides! Above story reminds me of my own personal education in that fact.

Whisking through a park one day I came up on a hill, and as I crested the hill I saw a bright brass n red T runabout (Late Tom Petty Stynoski car...but didn't know that at the time) and did not know who it was. While my mind was noodling who it might be and kept trying to catch a glimpse of who it was...I inadvertently forgotten that I had taken the hill in high, with a wide open throttle and had now crested the hill and was on the way down...and gaining speed at that. Quick adjust on the sticks, too much momentum developing. Sharp left hand turn at the bottom of the hill and this thing is way too fast...I'll pull the stick back and let it drag!

oops, what the heck? Dang thing went into the left turn on two wheels! Just when it felt like it should have already gone over, it righted itself with a thump and stopped in its tracks. Figured it out later...one brake rod was set longer than the other by previous owner which in effect takes 2nd rod out of the equation...one wheel locks, the other spins twice as fast due to diffy....maybe it would have been fine if it was a right turn but the left was apparently a perfect storm. Maybe not such a big deal, but there is a reason the suppliers want an equalizer on real brake systems...

Brakes need to be kept in good order.

vech wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:37 am

So criticize me all you like about not being a purist. I don't care.

So ! The gauntlet is flung !!

NEENER NEENER NEENER !!

There. Take that Craig !!

(I really doubt anyone would gainsay that "safety first" is the best policy !)

I am not a purist. I am a realist.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:29 pm

The mass Wail-in and Brake Apostate Criticism Festival begins at 8 PM tonight. BYOB.

BYOB Bring Your Own Brakes

No brass knuckles or tire irons allowed.

The Ford Service Manual will be used to settle all disputes.

Decisions will be final.

I'm not a pessimist I'm a optimist with experience. All things considered lets be care full out there.
Craig.

No one thinks your a pessimist. Steve wrote "Opinion", not an edict. Of course anyone can do anything to their own car for their enjoyment and security. I take no offense if someone doesn't like my car.

All the anti 4 wheel brake nonsense ignores the fact that front brakes were an available accessory in the T era.
Mcnerny for instance v

All of the braking discussion aside, I'd like to thank Steve Jelf for prompting me to look up, and to remind myself, what the word "apostacy" means.

I was happy with my transmission brake until I went on the Covered Bridge Tour in S Indiana. After a couple of close calls I came home and tracked down a set of disc brakes with which I have been extremely happy. I've come to strongly believe that auxiliary brakes that are separate from the transmission are a necessary safety item if you plan to drive anywhere except flat country. On the recent MTFCI National tour we went down some hills that required good brakes and would have been a severe strain on the transmission of a stock T. Love 'em, hate 'em, I don't care. I chose to go with the safest, most reliable auxiliary brakes available and have nothing but good experiences to report.