MTFCA Forum

I thought I would share a photo of the babbitt thrust washers we found when rebuilding the rear axle. I was fortunate they were in so good condition.

Don't re-use them. The y tend to crumble and then you have problems. Replace with bronze. You might want to keep them for "show and tell".
Norm

They have been replaced. I will keep them for "show and tell".

You are lucky they where that good, saved you tons on the rebuild!

Yes, Joe. I had my fingers crossed before the rear end was disassembled.

Here's what it looks like when the "babbitt" washers finally fail. The "grey death" If they really had been babbitt, they probably wouldn't be a problem. They are some odd lead/zinc/antimony/bismuth/heaven knows what alloy injection molded. Like much die-cast "pot metal" items from yesteryear, has an unpredictable "shelf life" and seems to spontaneously disintegrate in time.

For many years, my dad had a stack of NOS alloy thrust washers on the shelf that he acquired from a Ford dealer about 70 years ago but I believe he threw them out ten or twenty years ago.

I'm sure others probably have some NOS specimens in their parts collections.

Nice show and tell thrust washers Bruce.
The 18 here, one is quite nice and hanging up in the little shop. The other was almost as bad as Rich's. Intact but falling apart.
Yeah, it seems like they're a crappy version of Zamac and that degrades after decades. Sometimes.

They definitely are not babbit, they are zinc alloy die cast. The enemy of this alloy is lead. The phenomenon they suffer from is called intergranular corrosion.
Powdered lead was used as a mold release agent to eject parts out of the dies without distortion.
Since the molds did not need to be lubricated every cycle, the lead content varies from part to part.
Some didn’t make it a year, some still survive today, unharmed.
The problem exists in antique phonographs, Lionel trains, and anything that had pot metal parts.
The info comes from a company that has been in business for over a century and it’s their family’s documentation that they learned over the years and how they discovered it and corrected it.
That why you still see cars from the 40’s with pot metal door handles that still work like new.

I've never seen actual babbit metal decay. It can lie outdoors in salted earth for decades and not be affected. Items made from cast babbit can endure for a century and more with no decay, even if buried in soil. There is a type of "pot metal" that was once widely used that does decay, even in dry storage. As mentioned above, it was used in a variety of products. It tends to swell and crack and crumble. It cannot be repaired. I've encountered the material in old radios, phonographs, magnetos, and other items.

Evidence shows the thrust washers were an alloy, a type of “babbitt metal”, this earlier post shows that fact.



By Adam Doleshal on Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 12:56 pm:
I had a bunch of babbitt thrust washers saved up a couple years ago to melt down and make into a soft faced hammer. Most of what you get when you try to melt the old used ones is an oxide or ash. I ended up with less than 10 percent melted metal, the rest was ash.

Babbit metal, or white metal, as was commonly used in crankcase bearings in cars. trucks, and stationary engines, as well as general machinery applications, is not the same material used for some of the T thrust washers. It will not swell, crack, crumble, or otherwise decay in storage, even if left outdoors for decades or left sitting for decades in an old engine, whether it is in an enclosed crankcase with oil present or an open crankcase exposed to weather with any oil or grease long since weathered away. If abused in service, it can pound out of bearings due to poor adjustment, or overloading, or "burn out" due to lack of lubrication. Even if it is pounded to bits or melted out of a bearing, it can be collected and re-cast.

https://www.elsmerecanyon.com › oil › cabletoolrig › [See section on "cable tool rig" for diagrams] I was raised around several of these outfits, which were pumping oil from about 3100'. They were in operation from around 1918 thru about 1956. They were made mostly of wood, with many babbit bearings supporting 4" to 6" diameter steel shafts for saddle bearings, bullwheel bearings, band wheel bearings, calf wheel bearings, and sand reel bearings poured directly in bored-out holes in the timber framework. The engines made extensive use of babbit bearings, as did every other major working part of the rig. I still have several engines in running order, and lots of bits, jars, irons, shafting, various fragments and chunks of babbit, and other items. Most of the timber is gone, although one engine is sitting on a wooden base which rests on 3 wooden sampson posts. One wooden walking beam survives. None of the babbit, much of which has laid out in the open for my entire life and more, has shown any tendency to deteriorate. These rigs typically contained a couple of hundred pounds of babbit, and some had a good deal more, in cases where babbit was used as grout to set various pieces of machinery. Babbit was often used to repair splits and cracks in timber framework. They'd melt a bunch of babbit and pour it into cracks and splits to secure the structure or shim up loose joints. The "pot metal" used in many appliances and other things for a time was a different material with different characteristics, including its propensity to crumble away.

I pulled apart the rear end in my '13 roadster several years ago, because it had a high speed ring and pinion that I wanted to remove. It had perfect babbit thrust washers on both sides.

‘13 should have had bronze thrust washers. Your babbitt ones weren’t “original”!

Probably cheap Monkey Ward stuff!!

Adam wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:52 am

‘13 should have had bronze thrust washers. Your babbitt ones weren’t “original”!

They are now.

If I may.
What I find strange: How much money did Ford save using that zinc alloy instead of Babbitt? A few penny's each axle?
Including R & D of the methods beforehand.
A very good environment in the rear axle IF using real Babbitt thrusts. We wouldn't do much other than adjust clearance now.
Darren, thank you for that bit of info! A mold release! Lead. Wonder how good the ventilation was at that part of the factory...
I wonder how old that notion of the thrusts being Babbitt is.
Along Pat's notes:
In that era and now Babbitt is still a real-deal for a bearing material. I was going to say for slower speeds.
Hold on, what are early turbine engine bearings made of? Shaft speeds, even back when were pretty fast.
Dummy me, what about ANY modern bearing shell? A final lining of Babbitt.
Looked at a turbine engine over the weekend at our show that powered a generator (think 4 X 6 footprint) with an intense oiling system.
Our fellow didn't get the oil reservoir or the pump AFAIK.
Unless compromised or the oil system failed, that Babbitt is likely very good.
There is a way to save deteriorating Zamac pieces according to a hobby train enthusiast from many years ago.
Dry it to remove moisture, cool and apply CA (super glue) so it can soak in.
NOT a solution for a Ford rear axle!
The pic. A friend gave this to me a bunch of years ago, found on his homestead.
11" tall, 2 nail holes on one edge, sprue on top with marks from another 2X4. Must weigh five pounds and hard Babbitt.

I have one real Babbitt thrust washer which came out of an old diff. Visually, compared with an original pot metal washer, they are like chalk and cheese. I would not hesitate to use it of I could find a second one. Perhaps old bearing Babbitt could be used to cast others, rather than sending it to the scrapers. The application is surely less demanding than its use in bearings.

Allan from down under.

China has huge reserves of strategic metals. We ought to consider keeping some for our own needs.

"Babbit" can vary in make up. Old salvage babbit is even more uncertain as to analysis. Ford used to warn against "gyp" babbit, claiming their own was of superior quality.