MTFCA Forum

Hi,
anybody maintains the encyclopedia on the website?
I miss the date from which serial numbers was stamped in the chassis. I believe it was sometime in 1925, but I'm not sure. And of cource a note on "Chassis" that serial number - same as enginenumber - was stamped on left rail under the floor at the frontseat.
And then maybe a general note that the encyclopedia primarily covers dates and features as of the production in Dearborn. There may be differences on the assemblyplant and there definately is on the assemble plants abroad. For example Model Ts was assembled in Copenhagen until August 19. 1927 (Source: Fordnyt June 25th 1944 - quarter century jubilee number)

I have a reprint copy of Murray Fahnstock's Model A book. It's both amusing and informative, and the illustrations are a hoot.

Michael,

Steve is correct that the digital version (available at the address on Steve's website https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html). Barbara now sells them on a Mini-USB drive (thumb drive). The price is still $50 + shipping and handling ($10 listed but I would guess that is for the USA?)). Minor correction for Steve (who has way more miles in a T than I do. (I may have more parked time in a T than Steve as I lived/played in one for years before I was old enough to drive it?). (I was surprised that Bruce's hard copy book "Model T Ford" does not have that "serial number stamped on the frame" information listed for Dec 1925 on page 568. But it is listed in the on-line encyclopedia and also on my copy of the CD version as Dec 12 and not Dec 10. If your version of the CD has Dec 10, please let me know as I would like to find out which one is more accurate. From the on-line encyclopedia at: https://www.mtfca.com/model_t_encyclopedia/doc25/ it has:


DEC 12 Acc. 94. Walter Fishleigh files, Ford Archives “Motor number was first placed on frame side member R.H. on Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. Information obtained from Mr. Burns, Final Assy., Highland Park.”


The updated format on the website has consolidated some information and I suspect for most folks it works great/contains more of what they want. I also suspect they have made if more friendly for display on tablets and phones -- but I haven't gotten that modern yet.

The older version is still out there. I like to search that using Google i.e. type in what I want in Google and add site:mtfca.com and it often finds it for me. I'm also used to finding stuff there. In your case your 1925 hunch is correct. So you could go to the old format by going to: https://www.mtfca.com/encyclopedia/
Then scroll down to banner that says "GO TO THE OLD VERSION OF THE ENCYCLOPEDIA"
From there I go to "For a chronological list of changes in the Model T..." and click on 1925 (because I thought it was around there. If I didn't find it there I would look a year or so either side).
You can also find it on the updated format. Scroll past the "GO TO THE OLD VERSION OF THE ENCYCLOPEDIA" and go down to And again, scroll down to 1925 since we think it is near there. I have sometimes gone from 1909 to 1927 only to find out I missed what I was looking for or it was some place else.


And yes, Bruce's book is most accurate for the USA produced Model Ts. In large part, because a lot of that information was/is still available at the Benson Ford Archives. And he was specifically looking for USA information to publish in "The Vintage Ford" when he was the editor. He also did some other nations -- but had to rely on submissions from others. Also many records in Europe were destroyed during WWII.

Note that once all of the major engine production was shifted from the USA Highland Park Plant to the USA River Rouge plant, all engines assembled at the River Rouge plant were shipped to the Highland Park Plant for assembly into the cars and trucks. In this case the serial number 12,861,044 listed above was stamped on the engine block on Dec 5, 1925 (ref engine serial numbers page 533 Bruce's book) but was then shipped to the Highland Park Plant (not very far away). But it was not put into the car chassis until Dec 12 (approximately 7 days later). So the number stamped on the frame is actually stamped a little (or maybe a lot) later than when the engine is stamped. In the case of the 15,000,000 Model T they pulled engine assemblies 14,999,999 to 15,000,001 on May 25, 1927 and those only took a day to make it to the Highland Park plant where car #15,000,000 rolled off the assembly line on May 26, 1927.

And in the case of overseas assembly -- depending on where the engine was assembled, with the exception of Canada starting in 1913 -- all other assembly plants used blocks of engine serial numbers provided by Ford USA. For example on May 24, 1927 4000 serial numbers (not engines but serial numbers to be stamped on the engine that were assembled later) were sent to Manchester UK (ref page 536 Bruce McCalley, "Model T Ford.").

Obviously I like this kind of stuff. And I'm hoping to retire in less than 2 more years, move to Richmond, IN and be able to do more research at the MTFCA Museum Library as well as more actual working on my old cars. If anyone else is interested in helping us continue to update the information on the 1903-1927ish Fords -- please drop me a note or post one on line. If you don't see a response from me -- please send me an e-mail/private message. As no one I know can check all of the different posting etc. all the time. And I need to keep my day job to help pay for the move.....

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

If your version of the CD has Dec 10, please let me know...

My memory slipped a cog.
December 12 it is. I should remember an easy date like 12-12.

Thanks Steve!

I can't remember things like that -- the year sometimes but the actual date - not so much. Dawson Trotman often said, "The faintest of ink is better than the best of memories." And that has inspired me to write (or now days type) things. Of course sometimes I have to ask my wife if she can help me read what I wrote...

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Just another annoying Model T tidbit Dec 5 or Dec 12....who can tell?


Here is Bruce's ref. to Fishleigh letter on frame stamp start:


DEC 12 Acc. 94. Walter Fishleigh files.
“Motor number was first placed on frame side
member R.H. on Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. Information obtained from Mr. Burns, Final Assy., Highland Park.”

However, if you look at Bruce's complied serial number for motors, # 12,861,044 is listed as made on Dec. 5, 1925!


Seems the series of motor numbers for Dec 12 run from 12,903,185 to 12,911,185.

So Hap's determination that the motor was shipped and placed in that chassis on Dec 12, that appears to be the correct first date of frame stamping. And some branches have stamped the number on the left frame rail, I have seen those. Only frame stamp on the left rail! So Dec 12 is the date!

Hap and all - I actually have the "full version" - now copied to my PC - from the CD I was given personally by Bruce at Chickasha in 2010. I got him to sign my then new copy of the "black book" but did not think of asking him doing the same on the CD cover

Copenhagen (and Denmark) came through the war relatively intact. Yes there where bombings, but among German troops Denmark was nicknamed "The whipped cream front" as it was primarily used for recreation of the troops. And the Ford Assembly plant was not bombed or sabotaged during the war.
I've asked the archive and they have a looong list of artifacts related to Copenhagen, so maybe we should meet in a couple of years Hap at the archives and deep dive and see what we find.

Thank you for answering - december 1925 it was.