Coolant in oil

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mudman78
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Coolant in oil

Post by mudman78 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:44 pm

Newb here. I don't own the T, just think of me as Jay Leno's mechanic LOL. It has sat for 2 or 3 years, so I'm trying to get it running. The owner said he drove it when he first bought it. I went to change the oil and there was some antifreeze in the oil pan. Not a lot, only an ounce or two. Is this normal due to it's simplistic design or am I looking at a head gasket? Thanks in advance, Al.

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Humblej
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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by Humblej » Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:51 pm

Head gasket is not sealing, or there is a crack in the block or head. There should never be coolant in the oil.


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mudman78
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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by mudman78 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:03 pm

Off with it's head, I guess. Thank you.


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:07 pm

STOP!

an ounce or two over 3 years can very easily be condensation.

change the oil, run it some and monitor the oil color/condition

pull the head now and you're waiting for untold months for head gaskets to become available (they are not, right now)
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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by Dan Hatch » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:11 pm

Pull the valve cover. Check for coolant there. Blocks like to crack around the valve guides.
Not much way to fix if cracked there.


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by speedytinc » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:37 pm

Pull the plugs looking for evidence of a leak in one cylinder. Valve cover check as mentioned also.
Do absolutely every thing to be SURE of a head gasket leak before pulling the head. A camera in each cylinder to actually see the leak.

I would be inclined to fix a minor leak with a chemical fix like water glass.(sodium silicate?)


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mudman78
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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by mudman78 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:52 pm

I have a borescope. That will be next weeks project. I can only work on it on Saturdays. Thanks for the tips everyone.


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by speedytinc » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:19 pm

mudman78 wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:52 pm
I have a borescope. That will be next weeks project. I can only work on it on Saturdays. Thanks for the tips everyone.
Bore scope was the word my feeble mind couldnt get to.
With that, you an see if there is weeping thru a thin spot in each cylinder & all around the combustion chamber.
Good luck.

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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by Humblej » Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:28 pm

Scott,
Antifreeze in the oil could not be from condensation, it would have to be by osmosis, and that is impossible for a Model T head gasket, block, or head. Something is leaking, it is not normal, and needs to be fixed.


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by Allan » Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:54 pm

Perhaps antifreeze is used to describe coolant. Coolant can be plain old water just like condensation. I too, would run it till warm, change the oil, and wait and see, before pulling the head.
Allan from down under.


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by speedytinc » Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:30 pm

If you are not seeing a greyish milkshake of the oil, it cant be much of a "leak."

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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by JTT3 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:38 pm

Ok call me cautious, so you’ve already drained the oil & I’m assuming replaced it. One of the first things I’d do is check the torque on the head bolts cold. Opinions vary here on a pretend torque value but I’d hope they all are at least 45 lb. Most opinions I’ve read or have had discussions about through a wealth of others experiences seem to be from 45-50 lb. Then after running the engine till hot, torque again to 50 lb. From your post you said that the person that bought the T only used it a few times and then it sat for 2-3 years. Lots of unknowns from the prior owners maintenance or ability. I only assume based on your post that the present owner is unable to or lacks the skill to work on it with confidence or help. In this case William of Ockham’s philosophy (paraphrased) the simplest answer to multiple possibilities may be the best. (paraphrased). As Scott, Allen, John & Others have said don’t take the head off until you’ve exhausted other options. Torque and run the T then evaluate after several drives. If you still find coolant in the case after that Dan (master T engine builder) as well as the other opinions could be right IMHO
GOOD LUCK, Best John

PS could be as simple as the freeze plugs leaking and getting past the valve covers then into the crank case via the drain holes in valve chamber. As you said only an ounce maybe 2. That’s a small amount for a blown head gasket.


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm

Unfortunately, if any of the head bolts are too long, the torque wrench will show it torqued down to whatever you set the wrench. However it is reading torque against the block and the head of the bolt might not even be pushing the head down. I had a problem with two head gaskets until I found one bolt was too long. So if you pull the head, try the head on without the gasket and turn the bolts down to see if the head of the bolt is against the head when all the way down. If so grind a little off each bolt and then put on with the gasket and set torque. If a steel or cast iron head torque again after the engine is hot. Do this after you run the car a few times until the torque remains at 45-50 ft lbs. If you have an aluminum head, torque the head while cold and re torque after the engine has completely cooled off.
Another way to fix the problem if one or more bolts is too long would be to use washers between the heads of the bolts and the head.
I would be sure to have a gasket on hand before you pull the head.
If you pull the head look very carefully at the area between the cylinder and the exhaust valve. The engine tends to get hot at that area and if the engine overheats and you pour cold water into the radiator, the sudden cool off can cause the head to crack. It will usually crack at the place where it is hottest, so if you overheat wait for it to cool down enough so you can rest your hand on the engine before you add coolant.
Norm


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by mudman78 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:54 am

Just to fill the information gap, the owner is an older gentleman with a successful business that is allowing him to buy some "toys" later in life. He doesn't have much mechanical experience, so that's where I come in. I work for his business and he's developed a certain trust in my mechanical abilities, especially after being burned by shops in the past. I get paid and get the joy of playing with toys that I otherwise wouldn't be able to. He told me he drove it once when he bought it. Probably the previous owner letting him "test drive" it. He had it delivered to his house and it has sat as an eye piece with the other "toys". I'm currently just trying to get it running along with all the others. My initial evaluation was a dead battery and leak from the radiator petcock. I installed a new battery and upon draining the oil, noticed the antifreeze. Since the car hasn't run, the antifreeze hasn't mixed with the oil. I'm awaiting a transmission oil screen before refilling the oil and moving on. I also drained the cooling system to flush and refill with fresh. I haven't refilled it yet for obvious reasons. My next step is to pull the valve cover as I've read about rusting freeze plugs and was leaning in the direction of JTT3's comments.

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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by varmint » Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:16 am

There is a business that claims to have Model T head gaskets in stock if you are willing to buy from them.
Vern (Vieux Carre)


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by speedytinc » Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:31 am

Another consideration.
Anti freeze is thinner than water or water with soluble oil. Anti freeze will find a path out in cases where water wont. FWIW


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by mudman78 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:45 pm

Update: I saw the paperwork on the car and he bought it just over 5 years ago, so it hasn't run in 5 years. I pulled the valve cover and it was clean, but the #1 intake valve is stuck open. Freeze plugs are good, but they would leak externally if they were rotted out. I pulled the spark plugs and my borescope lens is small enough to fit into the head but too big to move around. I don't see any marks on the valves, so I'm inclined to believe they are one piece replacements. There's lots of carbon build up. They all look the same except for #1. #1's piston has erratic staining patterns in the carbon build up and traces of white residue on the outer perimeters of the stains. I think I'm looking at a head gasket. I can free the stuck valve with a brass drift through the spark plug hole or wait until the head is off. I found someplace that has the modern head gasket with the silicone around the water jackets. I found the copper head gasket as well, but can't tell if it's in stock or not. I'm more concerned with making it somewhat reliable as opposed to 100% authentic.


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:58 pm

Now is the time to flood the intake valve with penetrating oil from the inside, and a squirt on it from the valve chamber. Let sit while you fiddle with other stuff. My approach to these things is to over-lift from the valve chamber rather than pound down from the top...too much valve stem exposed with too much risk of bending. All you have to do to get a valve to stick with a tight/fresh engine is to run it briefly on a cold winter day...condensation will settle in and that's that. Been there done that.

And by the way, I know that because I've done it...and also found that there were a couple tablespoons of water in the oil when I drained oil and found the stuck valve. I know you're hell-bent on pulling the head and maybe it needs it, but an engine with a stuck valve and a TINY bit of coolant/water in the oil after a 5 year sit can most certainly be condensation. I unstuck the valve, changed the oil and the head never came off. Car runs great and does not leak coolant (and it always gets run until it's HOT now).

I am mentioning all of this, because removing and replacing the head can be it's own bag of snakes, including having to become acquainted with Heli-coils or similar when you strip a thread in the block. It is easy to do and happens frequently even with the greatest skill and care.
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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by mudman78 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:17 pm

I can soak the valve next Saturday LOL. I'm not going to go any further until I can make sure parts are available. Just for clarification, the coolant that was in the oil pan was green Prestone antifreeze. It wasn't clear or rusty.

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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by JTT3 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:18 pm

Al I’d listen to Scott on this, the rest can be taken care of externally for the most part. On the freeze plugs, they can still weep on the outside even if they feel solid. If they do coolant can leak down the outside of the block & then weep past the gasket into the crank case. You can clean the carbon without taking the head off but I won’t put the cart before the horse. Get it started & running and then we can cross that bridge. If you have taken the crankcase inspection plate off you will be able to tell if it has aluminum pistons or not. If it does more than likely the valves were replaced in my honest opinion (IMHO). Lang’s now has copper head gaskets available if & when you need one. May want to order now just to be on the safe side. Good luck & keep us posted.
Best John

PS TAKE SOME PICTURES AND POST THEM IF YOU CAN. If you have trouble doing that you can send them to one of us and we’ll post them for you.
Last edited by JTT3 on Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by Distagon2 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:24 pm

I strongly advise against using the silicone head gasket. I have never used one on a Model T, but they are nothing but grief on a Model A which is not all that much different of an engine.


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:34 am

In the early days, water was sprayed in the carb intake to remove carbon in the combustion chamber.

If water is leaking in, that spark plug and inside area will be a little cleaner than the other combustion chambers.

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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:49 am

Lang's has copper head gaskets in stock - better order one up !


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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by John Codman » Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:27 pm

Add me to the list of those who think that you should fill the crankcase, fill the cooling system, and run it for a bit before taking things apart.

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Re: Coolant in oil

Post by mbowen » Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:57 pm

Distagon2 wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:24 pm
I strongly advise against using the silicone head gasket. I have never used one on a Model T, but they are nothing but grief on a Model A which is not all that much different of an engine.
My choice would be copper as well, but I had the (high cast iron) heads off of both of my T’s when the silicone ones were the only choice. So far I’ve had no issues on either one, installed, run, and retourqued per the instructions that came with the gaskets, even on my ‘24 Touring that I’ve put around 1100 miles on since June. IIRC, there is a warning that they aren’t compatible with aftermarket aluminum heads.
Miles
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