Retrieving loose parts in motor

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5 WoodenWheels
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Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:46 pm

Hello all,

While troubleshooting a starter problem I discovered the end of the bendix assy had fallen off and dropped into the motor.

Now it’s down there somewhere and I’d like to get it out before driving or even starting the car again. I have the bottom inspection plate removed, likewise the transmission filter cover. And of course the starter. I’ve fished around with a flexible magnet tool and so far nothing.

Where would you hide if you were the end of the bendix? I’d appreciate any suggestions, would like to get out of this with minimal tear-down but may have to bite the bullet. Thanks in advance.

Gerrit


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by John kuehn » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:05 pm

It could be between the magnets and being held in place by the magnets. Since it’s somewhere between or close to them the magnetism is keeping the parts from “feeling loose”.
Can you get a stiff piece of steel banding strap and push it carefully here and there to dislodge or move the pieces?

You may have to remove the transmission cover only and JUST MAYBE you will then have enough room to pick or fish the pieces out if all other ways have been tried.

That may be the safest way to do it to keep from tearing up the magneto coil windings. If you do that it’s a total tare down if it’s torn up.


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:20 pm

John

Thanks for the suggestions. If I slowly turn the motor a little at a time should I be able to see the magnets through the starter hole? I’m a first-year model T owner and still learning. Don’t always know what I’m looking at. I do have great support from my club but feel like this is something I can figure out.

Gerrit


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by kmatt2 » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:42 pm

I believe that Amazon sells a low cost cylinder bore scope that works with a cell phone for the viewer. Seeing where the lost part is will be of great help in removing it from the transmission.


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by John kuehn » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:51 pm

Just remember that if you turn the engine it may damage the magneto coil windings. When you stopped the car did you hear any clanking or noise from the engine? Was the engine running on magneto or battery when you cut it off?
If it were mine I think I would remove the transmission cover and that would be the best way to see what’s going on to have the best access to the magnets other then completely removing the engine and tearing it down.
Other folks on the forum will give an idea of what you can do also.
Wait a few days and see what they recommend and DONT get in a hurry to turn over the engine yet. That would be my advice for now.
Using a bore scope viewer is a great way to check it too!

If you don’t have a parts catalog go to Lang’s T parts and look under starter drive. That way you can see what the parts look like. You mentioned that you may not know what you were exactly looking for.


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:26 pm

kmatt2 wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:42 pm
I believe that Amazon sells a low cost cylinder bore scope that works with a cell phone for the viewer. Seeing where the lost part is will be of great help in removing it from the transmission.
Thanks, that’s very helpful. I’ll check out what’s available.
Gerrit


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:29 pm

John kuehn wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:51 pm
Just remember that if you turn the engine it may damage the magneto coil windings. When you stopped the car did you hear any clanking or noise from the engine? Was the engine running on magneto or battery when you cut it off?
If it were mine I think I would remove the transmission cover and that would be the best way to see what’s going on to have the best access to the magnets other then completely removing the engine and tearing it down.
Other folks on the forum will give an idea of what you can do also.
Wait a few days and see what they recommend and DONT get in a hurry to turn over the engine yet. That would be my advice for now.
Using a bore scope viewer is a great way to check it too!

If you don’t have a parts catalog go to Lang’s T parts and look under starter drive. That way you can see what the parts look like. You mentioned that you may not know what you were exactly looking for.
Good advice, I’ll take it slow. No mechanical noise when I shut it off and I was running on battery.
Gerrit


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:53 pm

You will get past this, but for the life of me cannot imagine how a single part of the end of the bendix became liberated to the extent that it made it into the engine...there just isn't enough room in the bendix cover for things to come off or pass through. Perhaps I am imagining the wrong end and something BROKE off, but still cannot imagine anything FALLING off. Live and learn on my end, I suppose...
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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by Art M » Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:54 pm

I am with Scott, not enough room to easily happen. I am wondering what,parts are missing. They should be found before the engine is turned.

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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:35 am

Picture of Bendix parts. So was the starter cover removed before or after the missing parts were noticed? If a screw and/or lock washer is missing which ones?
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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by FireDan » Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:40 am

I once had a tiny wood screw find it's way into a spark plug hole and lodge under a valve first start up.... how these things happen, god only knows. I was lucky with that , was able to get it out with out removing the head and it did not bend the valve . Good old Harbor Freight has a cheap scope, my dad has one , it has paid for itself many times over . I too fished out something from the end of the oil pan once , I don't remember what it was or how I dropped it but many words were said .....probably had something to do with band replacement ....... all I can say to help is , once it's out and all the pieces are there, there will be a sigh of relief .


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:53 am

One piece not shown on that picture is a woodroof key it is shaped like a half round key which round part fits in the shaft and the flat side goes into the drive head. It's possible that this key was left out when it was assembled which lead to the bolt being the only thing holding the spring to the end of the shaft and it came loose. unfortunately unless it is still in the shaft you will not know whether or not it was ever there.

On removal of parts, you might be lucky because the starter drive assembly is on the back side of the flywheel away from the magnets and so the parts might be in the sump right above the drain plug. Remove the hogs head and you could get lucky and find them there.
Norm


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:27 am

Thanks for the replies. I’ll provide a visual when I’m on my other computer. It shows the part that I believe is missing. The club member who was helping me troubleshoot the starter had a complete bendix and we compared the two after removing mine. Gerrit

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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by Craig Leach » Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:36 am

Hi Gerrit,
Kevin’s suggestion is well worth a try. I have a stand alone bore scope that has save two engine tear downs and helped with many other diagnoses
One that confirmed that a tear down was needed
When the thought was it was OK to go ahead and
Drive! Once you have the scope you will find many other uses for it.
Craig.


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:03 am

Craig Leach wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:36 am
Hi Gerrit,
Kevin’s suggestion is well worth a try. I have a stand alone bore scope that has save two engine tear downs and helped with many other diagnoses
One that confirmed that a tear down was needed
When the thought was it was OK to go ahead and
Drive! Once you have the scope you will find many other uses for it.
Craig.
I'll definitely be ordering one, thanks.
Gerrit


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:12 am

Here is a photo of the bendix from the catalogue. We compared mine to a complete unit we had on hand and saw that the end piece that threads on was missing. I have to address the incredulous comments here and add that my friend and club member helping me had never seen this happen in over 40 years of working on and owning Model Tees. First time for everything, I suppose.

What prompted this whole adventure is one day the starter would just spin when I hit the starter switch. I could hear it turning but it was not grabbing the flywheel. I tried the usual things, thinking maybe it had hit a bad spot on the flywheel ring gear before taking the bendix off to further investigate.

Hope this helps clarify the situation. As always, thanks for the help.

Gerrit
Bendix assembly.png


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:18 am

BTW my car is a 1923 Touring with a motor that is close in years to the '23. I don't remember exactly which year the motor is. Additionally, the magnetic piece on the end of my flex tool has come off somewhere in the bottom of the transmission. It was not a very well-made tool. Hopefully that is just stuck to the bottom of the transmission case. I'll be able to learn more when I have the bore-scope.

Gerrit


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by speedytinc » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:26 am

That cant happen. That part cant get past the rest of the bendix drive unless it split in half. I dont see that as a possibility. It would be captured in the starter nose or down in further toward the starter bushing. Look @ the starter nose. It could have been left off by the previous owner, maybe. This is a curiosity. Do let us know.


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:40 am

speedytinc wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:26 am
That cant happen. That part cant get past the rest of the bendix drive unless it split in half. I dont see that as a possibility. It would be captured in the starter nose or down in further toward the starter bushing. Look @ the starter nose. It could have been left off by the previous owner, maybe. This is a curiosity. Do let us know.

I'll keep you posted. Would the starter have even functioned with that part missing? The car has been starting fine for about a year.
Gerrit


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:51 am

for that particular part to get into the motor, it would have had to break in half, work forward along the shaft and then fall out...very hard to believe.

it specifically runs in the babbited snout of the starter and if wrenched off of the helix of the bendix, may still be actually in the starter snout/casting
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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:46 am

Scott_Conger wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:51 am
for that particular part to get into the motor, it would have had to break in half, work forward along the shaft and then fall out...very hard to believe.

it specifically runs in the babbited snout of the starter and if wrenched off of the helix of the bendix, may still be actually in the starter snout/casting
Is this the part? It came out of the starter, and it looked like the starter shaft was riding in it like it was some kind of bearing. If this is what I've been looking for you've saved me a tremendous amount of time and anguish.
IMG_8576.jpg
IMG_8577.jpg
IMG_8576.jpg
THANK YOU.

Gerrit

Are there any related parts or fasteners I should be looking for?


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by John kuehn » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:55 am

That’s great that the piece was still in the starter snout!

Now to try to get to the small piece that was on the end of your flex tool!

Since it was a magnetic part it may be stuck on somewhere on the flywheel or the bottom of the engine sump.


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:19 am

John kuehn wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:55 am
That’s great that the piece was still in the starter snout!

Now to try to get to the small piece that was on the end of your flex tool!

Since it was a magnetic part it may be stuck on somewhere on the flywheel or the bottom of the engine sump.

I ordered a borescope, very much looking forward to using it. I expect I'll find other things down there as I look around.
Thanks to everyone for all the help.

Gerrit


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by speedytinc » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:30 am

Very good.
The bendix would have still functioned, but this bushing supports the starter shaft. The starter shaft is likely bent & the ring gear teeth could be damaged from the flexing shaft & gear slipping. There would be nothing else lost in the motor unless the threaded portion of the bendix body broke off. (not likely).

That bushing has 2 holes on opposite sides. Those holes receive a stake from inside to retain onto the bendix body. Screw it back on tight & restake.
The old unit may be salvageable.
In the counterweight on the gear, there is a small counter-bored hole that retains a small pin & spring. It must be there for the bendix to operate properly. Did you account for it, if it was not in place?


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:39 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:30 am


That bushing has 2 holes on opposite sides. Those holes receive a stake from inside to retain onto the bendix body. Screw it back on tight & restake.
The old unit may be salvageable.
In the counterweight on the gear, there is a small counter-bored hole that retains a small pin & spring. It must be there for the bendix to operate properly. Did you account for it, if it was not in place?
Yes, the little pin and spring are in place. Checking it over further, I see the half-moon pieces inside the big spring and the corner of one is slightly galled. How do you feel about that? Going to cause problems? I’ve attached a photo, not sure how clear it is. Thanks for your time and suggestions.

Gerrit

I am thinking a special tool is required to stake that bushing from inside—or a lot of creativity and imagination.


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:50 pm

Picture of the damaged bendix. Should have been attached to previous message.

Gerrit
5D9D62AF-2B64-43B4-A616-F21D815F911C.jpeg


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by speedytinc » Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:56 pm

Looks like a little burr. Remove the chip & you are ok.
Remove the spring, Inspect that part for a split & see the pin & spring which I cant see with this pix.
Post a better, more complete view.

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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:17 pm

Both spring eyes need to be in alignment - straight across from each other - I can't see your spring's other end. You should remove the spring to check for "common" cracks on the sleeve.

John stated the "crack" fact previously - sorry !


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:40 pm

Additional pics.
587BA5C4-FBD1-49A4-8325-FA7D02CAE952.jpeg
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982451DD-473E-4480-8415-25A571C297F8.jpeg


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by speedytinc » Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:01 pm

I see the pin & spring is present.
The large drive spring may need replacing. Normally the eyes line up together. Not to say there were not after market springs that were made with the eyes 180 out like your's appears. The spring looks a bit tweaked.


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by 5 WoodenWheels » Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:48 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:01 pm
I see the pin & spring is present.
The large drive spring may need replacing. Normally the eyes line up together. Not to say there were not after market springs that were made with the eyes 180 out like your's appears. The spring looks a bit tweaked.
Thanks, I am leaning more towards replacing the whole unit. I'll keep mine for spare parts. The spring does appear to be somewhat skewed as you pointed out.

I appreciate everyone's efforts in helping me resolve this issue. I should be ready for our local tour later this month.

Gerrit

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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:46 pm

Here are all the individual parts to account for
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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:15 pm

Missing the small key in your photo.


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by speedytinc » Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:20 pm

RajoRacer wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:15 pm
Missing the small key in your photo.
& a good view of the pin & spring.


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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by Art M » Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:25 pm

That happened to me. Recognized it before any damage occurred

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Re: Retrieving loose parts in motor

Post by Art M » Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:30 pm

Left out the key ... others are faster than I.

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