MTFCA Forum

Hi All
I have a set of Messenger wire wheels that suit a T. I am trying to find some information on how the hubcaps work? I am missing them all. Any information would be greatly appreciated
I believe these wheels were made in Canada

Messenger brand wheels are new to me, but appears that a pipe wrench is the traditional tool here

There were a couple of fairly complex locking wheel nut mechanisms out there in the T era. Eg, Simplex 1/4 turn nuts and early House expanding collet nuts. So don’t underestimate the potential complexity of the unknown…

No doubt the center nut and outer plate serve different purposes. Given the severe wear and tear on the center nut, compared to the virtually untouched outer plate, my imagination leads me to believe that the outer plate captures the wheel nut to the wheel, and the center nut retains the wheel to the hub. The Simplex brand wheels retained the nut to the wheel as well.

What materials are the outer plate and center nut? Common wheel nut materials were cast iron and bronze. Not sure if you can identify if the wheels are right or left side, but ypical knock off wheel nut theory states that with an internal threaded nut, left side is right thread, right side is left thread. External threaded wheel nuts are opposite

With the plate being threaded, it seems unlikely that a spanner would go there, but wonder if there is some sort of spring ratchet enclosed within, which a special threaded bolt would depress and release...

definitely mechanical archeology will be involved...just how much of the skeletal remains will be left after uncovering things, remains to be seen!

Andrew, as I mentioned a while ago I have a set of Messenger wire wheels also. which I don't have further use for if anyone thinks they can use them.
I only have two hubs and someone had no idea how to disassemble the hub from the wheel and the hex in the center is butchered like yours.
The hole in the center is threaded and I suspect the hub cap just screws into it.

Being the shape it is the hubcap probably does not have any locking device , except maybe left and right hand threads
I have a photo of the hub cap which from memory came from Kevin Molwe.

Now that’s a thread!

No KIDDING!!

if mine, at this point I would not hesitate to weld about a 3' long bar onto that hex and after that heat, bet that the bar would twist it right off

The wheel nut pic shows that the outer plate (not shown) is separate, and not part of some elaborate locking mechanism. The nut appears to have a relief cut on the far side that would expose the end of the thread once the cover plate is removed. I would start by removing the cover plate, then soak the threads with penetrating oil.

You can’t make the hex any worse… but consider if you want to make new nuts, or hope to repair these

This may help. seems to be how it is supposed to work??
The big nut in the photo I posted has a chunk out of it see "A": (someone was looking to work out how it worked).
That nut screws down on the hub via the big thread to hold the wheel onto the hub. The hex nut screws it on and off.
The missing plate is removed by using the two holes and has a fine thread which screws into the wire wheel center. see "B"
the hub cap screws into the small threaded center thread inside the hex nut. see "C"

Thanks for all the input
I will try and get these ones apart and post a progress photo.
Also in search of somebody that could make myself and maybe Peter the said missing hubcaps.

Hi Andrew, As mentioned I have no use for these wheels now my restoration days are over. I purchased the wheels from Stan Howe with the intension of building a Rajo speedster but Vic Jacobs Fronty became available and I elected to drive it instead of spending all that driving time in the garage building another speedster. So the wheels sit in the corner.

HI, Included is an original photo of the Messenger's on a car in Fort William, Ontario. As you can see the hub caps stick way out so they are very prone to breaking off when going too close to a garage door or whatever.

Windsor records show the following around 1920/21:

Messenger Wheel Co. Ltd.
89 Ottawa St. (south side Ottawa St.)
A. Whittaker Pres.
E.L. Messenger Vice-Pres
D.L. Messenger sec.-treas.

Checking out the address the original building is long gone and there's a drug store there now.
It hints the company was only in business a couple years. I believe the wheels were sold across Canada through companies like Eaton's and maybe Simpson Sears. As Australia was part of the Commonwealth these wheels would of got a reduced tariff if any were sent that way.

The centre hub in the wheel tightens onto the spindle hub. The hex has been rounded off as they probably lost the wrench. The two bolts (missing in the photo) are then tightened to lock the wheel hub in place. The hub cap is then threaded on to cover everything. There are two types of hub caps. The first is a big brass nut with the Messenger logo riveted on . This brass nut secured a dome shape cover. The second is an aluminium hub cap with the centre mounting bolt cast into it. The Messenger logo riveted on.
I believe the Messengers linked up with Spranger out of Detroit. I believe the construction of the two wheels are similar. Any Spranger owners out there? Any idea where the Spranger factory was located?

Hope this helps.
Kevin

Wow Kevin A great amount of information here thank you very much.
you have answered one of my questions around how the outer hub locks the inner hub into place thank you.

I have several sets of Spranger wire wheels and they are nothing like messenger wheels in fact the sprangers are more like Hayes wire wheels. I should start a thread on sprangers too.

Cheers and thanks

Gentlemen of the Messenger Wire Wheel Clan - it appears that I have joined this kinship as of yesterday for I have a partial set of Messenger wheels now. I shall begin my quest for 2 front hubs and 2-3 good wheels. ( I must like the challenge of trying to complete a set of unusual wheels I suppose. I was successful in completing a set of Mott demountables a few years ago , so why not Messenger also ? ) I too would be interested in a set of wheel nuts/caps .

Can the hub cap on the Messengers be made of brass, such as in a casting? or is it some type of hardened steel that acts as a lock to keep the wheels securely on the hub?

In other words, is the hubcap just decorative, to keep water and mud out of the hub, or is it a structural part of the wheel assembly?

If it is just brass, and someone is willing to supply one to use as a sample to make a pattern, I would be willing to take a stab at it. The part supplied as a pattern would NOT be used to produce anything, it would only be used as a measurement example for the production of a pattern to make some castings, and returned after measuring and photographing.

I have all this information. Let me put it together and I’ll put a post up on here with photos, measurements etc. I would also be interested in a set as well.
They are purely decorative hubcaps

The first 4 pictures
Not my measurements but kindly provided

Last photos for now

The measurements are helpful, but not enough to generate a pattern from. I would need a sample to examine to tease out the specifics of how the pattern will have to be made. Or if someone has a detailed drawing giving such information as the thickness of the hubcap, whether the thickness varies or not, the radius of the outside of the cap, versus the inside of the cap, radius on the edge of the hubcap, etc. etc.
A sample would also allow an accurate photo to be made, for the purpose of generating a master for the engraving on the hubcap medallion.

Andrew

regarding your dimensions: the 1/2-14 you show was never a standard of any kind at any time for straight threads (for tapered pipe threads, it is standard)...are you sure it isn't 1/2-13?

Hi Scott

These were kindly provided to us so not sure really
I have never seen a hubcap in real life. I will check mine before making the caps I guess now

Cheers
Andrew

Have fun and post progress. This will be quite a project.

1/2"-12 threads and 1/2"-13 threads used to be commonly available.
The standard thread now is 1/2"-13, but I have a tap and die set for 1/2"-12 and I see them advertised occasionally on Ebay and other sales sites. It became obsolete in the late teens, (probably during wartime production in WWI it was dropped as a specification), although "Machinery Handbook" still lists it as an available thread size, and shows the standards required for production use.
(Similar situation to the Harley 1/4"-24 thread, which has been referred to as the "Harley Bastard Thread" but is really not. Harley picked it because they wanted a slightly coarser thread for use in their aluminum castings. But actually this thread was very popular in early automobiles that used aluminum castings as well, so it was not just used by Harley.)
If you look at an older copy of "Machinery Handbook" you will be surprised to see that there are six or seven (sometimes as many as TEN!) different thread pitches available in various sizes. Current thread sizes are the most common uses, but I have seen MANY early automobiles that used variations that are pretty rarely found, but were picked by the factory engineers for some pet reason. I have found that it is VERY WISE to closely examine any mystery thread, and determine EXACTLY what the true pitch number is, before you casually run a tap through a hole to clean it up. (This is not so common on Early Fords, as nearly all the screw threads were selected based on them being normal industrial standards at the time. However, it is important when dealing with accessories and odd performance items that did not come from Ford. Sometimes small companies used whatever thread size they might have had tooling for, rather than buying a standard threaded part, so you can get an occasional surprise. I have found both 8-36 threads, and 10-36 threads several times on early machinery.
It is true that standard thread sizes were not OFFICIAL before the 1910-1914 period, HOWEVER, the 60 degree screw thread in today's standard sizes was well established during industrial production for the Civil War in the 1860's, and was the fore-runner of todays SAE specs.