MTFCA Forum

I am working on a 1924 Touring I have questions about. The engine has a starter but no generator, just a block off plate where the generator would mount. Is that correct? It has electric headlights and oil cowl lamps if that matters. Should it have a generator and if not can one be added? Art

Semi-deleted.

If it has a block off plate, it should be no problem to install a generator and cutout. Be sure to use the correct bolts. The headlights and horn could be 6 volt or they could be magneto lights. If the car has a plastic or fiber timing gear, it would be a good idea to replace it with a metal one. If the car never had a generator, some wiring changes/additions may be necessary and the magneto lights and horn would need to be replaced with 6 volt items if you want to run the lights, etc, and charge the battery off the generator rather than the magneto.

The terminal block on the firewall would have 5 connectors if it never had a generator with a generator it would have 6 connectors
Art Mirtes

Many T owners have a starter and motorcycle battery for ease of starting (no cranking). Coils can run on battery or magneto, same is true for lights. How long they can run all depends on the Ah of the battery and how you consume its energy. The generator is useful to power lights and maintain battery voltage for longer usage time.
The point about the wiring is important , magneto or incandescent bulb that is the question. Magneto bulbs are wired in series and incandescent in parallel. see diagrams. A simple way to id your wiring is if you have an ammeter or dimmer. Note the generator just has a simple entry point into the electric circuit.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:23 pm

If it has a block off plate, it should be no problem to install a generator and cutout. Be sure to use the correct bolts. The headlights and horn could be 6 volt or they could be magneto lights. If the car has a plastic or fiber timing gear, it would be a good idea to replace it with a metal one. If the car never had a generator, some wiring changes/additions may be necessary and the magneto lights and horn would need to be replaced with 6 volt items if you want to run the lights, etc, and charge the battery off the generator rather than the magneto.

I would like to add a generator to this car. I'm going to need a generator and cutout to do that. How would I tell the difference between a 6 volt or magneto horn and lights?

Magneto horn runs off the magneto not the battery, so voltage can vary by engine speed. You will have to look at what head light bulbs you have installed. To install a generator the radiator is going to have to come off. One of the mounting bolts cannot be installed with it in place. Think off hand it is the top one.

Art Ebeling wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:28 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:23 pm

If it has a block off plate, it should be no problem to install a generator and cutout. Be sure to use the correct bolts. The headlights and horn could be 6 volt or they could be magneto lights. If the car has a plastic or fiber timing gear, it would be a good idea to replace it with a metal one. If the car never had a generator, some wiring changes/additions may be necessary and the magneto lights and horn would need to be replaced with 6 volt items if you want to run the lights, etc, and charge the battery off the generator rather than the magneto.

I would like to add a generator to this car. I'm going to need a generator and cutout to do that. How would I tell the difference between a 6 volt or magneto horn and lights?

Add a picture of your terminal block on the firewall and your ignition switch. They will tell a lot. If you look at the wiring diagram a magneto horn is wired to the terminal block where the magneto wire is also wired. A battery horn is connected to the terminal block where where the battery wire is connected

Here are pictures of what I am working with. Art

Ammeter on the switch plate indicates it should have a starter and generator.

Two recommendations Art...First, consider an alternator rather than a generator. I've touted these before, many chastise me for it but I don't mind. I really LOVE my alternator on my Fordor. No dim lights ever, keeps batt up perfect, if you're not gonna "show the car" in a big-time point judging, then it's the cats meow. Or is that another part of the cat? Ha ha. And the terminal block on the firewall just looks "iffy"...for all they cost, I'd replace it with a new one. Just my stupid opinion.

I have removed and installed my generator without removing the radiator, but the bolts were already present and of the correct type. Another note: It may be necessary to adjust the generator pinion gear mesh when you install a generator. That is done, if needed, by adding or removing gasket shims from the generator to timing case mount to obtain the correct gear clearance. (See Ford Service book) NEVER run the engine without the generator either being connected properly, or grounded.

The terminal block looks original and indicates that the car originally had a generator.
It most likely has 6 volt lights, horn, and wiring. If the wiring is not present, or to be replaced, choose wiring for an "electric" car, which will have the correct wiring for the generator, ammeter, terminal block, lighting, etc. The ammeter you have will work fine with a generator, as will the starter.

A good working Model T generator is superior to an alternator. Only reason some people like alternator is to run after market 12 volt parts or equipment. If you use a distributor, a 6 volt ignition coil can be used. If your magneto doesn't work and you wish to use coils you would get a hotter spark with 12 volts, however I ran one for 10 years on 6 volt battery. It was a little slower, but I toured the canyonlands tour from Kanab to Bryce, Cedar Breaks, Zion, and North Rim. Ran fine and pulled all the hills on 6 volts.
It has been my experience, having been on many tours, that many cars have broken down because their alternators failed. The alternator was made to be run on a pulley with a fan behind the pulley run off a belt. When it is fitted to run off the timing gear, the fan is removed and the alternator overheats, or the gear comes off or other problem areas.
Norm

If I wanted to run an alternator, I'd consider mounting one on the left side of the engine in the area where a water pump would be located. A number of alternators are available now with a pulley that will acommodate a flat drive belt. Pay attention to the direction of rotation and the speed range at which the alternator can be expected to perform. A custom pulley and modern belt with an idler may be required. A ball bearing fan hub would also be required. An alternator mounted and driven this way ought to be as reliable as any other setup. You'd be running the alternator at about twice engine speed. The stock drive runs the less efficient generator at a similar speed, somewhere around 1.5 times engine speed.

Many alternators are capable of high output. Finding some way to limit that output to about 20 amps might improve reliability of an alternator mouned in place of a generator.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:31 am

I have removed and installed my generator without removing the radiator, but the bolts were already present and of the correct type. Another note: It may be necessary to adjust the generator pinion gear mesh when you install a generator. That is done, if needed, by adding or removing gasket shims from the generator to timing case mount to obtain the correct gear clearance. (See Ford Service book) NEVER run the engine without the generator either being connected properly, or grounded.

Going back and looking at the photo again, the radiator is off so moot point about removing it. If the radiator was installed, you would need to either remove it or remove the casting the generator mounts to. The top bolt is too long to install with one or the other in place. The bolts now installed, I am going to bet, are not fine thread and would need to be changed because they look to be course thread. If they are fine thread, great!
Was talking about installing the top bolt not the generator. Of course, you can remove the generator without pulling the radiator.
To check the mesh, the timing gear cover would need to be off, there wouldn't really be a way to check with it on, unless you could rotate the armature at the commentator end. The machined area at the end of the generator needs to be seated in the casting to check mesh which would put the gear out of reach with the timing gear cover on.

Norman Kling wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:08 am

A good working Model T generator is superior to an alternator. Only reason some people like alternator is to run after market 12 volt parts or equipment. If you use a distributor, a 6 volt ignition coil can be used. If your magneto doesn't work and you wish to use coils you would get a hotter spark with 12 volts, however I ran one for 10 years on 6 volt battery. It was a little slower, but I toured the canyonlands tour from Kanab to Bryce, Cedar Breaks, Zion, and North Rim. Ran fine and pulled all the hills on 6 volts.
It has been my experience, having been on many tours, that many cars have broken down because their alternators failed. The alternator was made to be run on a pulley with a fan behind the pulley run off a belt. When it is fitted to run off the timing gear, the fan is removed and the alternator overheats, or the gear comes off or other problem areas.
Norm

Sorry, but I'll argue that one til the cow's come home. From what I have seen, read, experienced, first, FINDING a good working generator seems to be more evasive than most will admit. Second, even the decent one I had on another car, ALWAYS would go into discharge with lights on at an idle. The alternator NEVER does. And I'm running 6V and plenty happy. I don't need no 12V just cause I have an alternator. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! As they say, to each his own, I don't judge.

Telephone operators need 12 volts to feed their devices. Certain politicians excoriate Americans for being "addicted to autombiles". In fact, most Americans are addicted to hand-held "telephones", which are actually "Two-way Wrist TVs", a la Dick Tracey.

Ron Patterson, November 15, 2011 https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 1321373211
The Model T coil is designed to operate at 1.3 amps, anything higher and your simply creating an internal overheating situation. It doesn't make any difference if you use 6 or 12 volts. The coil is slower to operate on 6 volts and a conversion to 12 volts speeds the coil up so it works well at higher engine speed.
I wrote an article on this subject several years ago which explains why running the coil on 12 volts when the magneto is inoperative is a good solution.
More on Model T Spark Timing https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/ignition2.pdf
The only thing you have to beware of when operating coils on 12 volts is NOT to let them buzz continually without the engine running. A few minutes of that and you will have this; --
--
By John F. Regan, November 15, 2011
The current is set properly using an HCCT then to 1.3 amps of average current on an AC ammeter. This usually equates to a peak current of about 4 amps when the points are then pulled apart and the coil fires. If the coils are then used on DC they remain closed until the same peak current is reached. This takes about 4 mSec (milliseconds)to ramp up to 4 amps when operating from a 6V battery and about 2 mSec when operating from a 12V battery. The coil basically always fires at the same amperage current point since the strength of the magnetic field pulling the points apart is determined by amp-turns - not voltage. The problems start when you start setting up a coil using a BUZZ box since you are then asking what the current should be and in truth the current you are seeing on the meter of that sort of tester is a guess since if the meter movement is highly damped you might be setting your coils much higher than if your meter is not highly damped. The frequency of the "buzz" will change with voltage and so will the duty cycle of the "buzz" and the test meter is giving you a reading of what????????? Well it says amps on the meter so I guess it is. But it is pulsating DC amps and I won't try to guess as to its accuracy. To me arguing about whether to use 6V or 12V and then what the current should read on the meter of a tester that doesn't even tell you whether the points are operating with single sparks or double sparks is simply then trying to make sense out of nonsense. It is a testament to the basic design that it can be made to run at all in light of such "guess-timate" type of coil adjusting but hey - have some fun and tell us how well it all works. I don't mind. T's are for tinkering and having fun and you can always tow it home.
--
--
Based on owner observations related to 6v, 12v or magneto voltages performance being due to the creation a hotter spark (true) the actual result is may be due to the faster reaction time of the coils to fire. Interestingly, Magnetos produce higher output voltages as speed increases therefore that should cause a faster reaction of coals to fire. Having said that, it doesn't mean that they are superior to a distributor system, all depends on the output volt & reaction times. Modern ignition coils run from 20-50 thousands output volts

This falls under the "look with your eyes and not your lips catagory". This was in one of several boxes of parts that came with the car. Art

Almost looks like it could be "new", i.e. never used? Give it a try!

The chart above shows clearly why Model Ts perform better running on a good mag. You get a good spark and semi-automatic timing adjustment. Probably easier on timer and points, too.

Ok Art, looking with my eyes; the screws holding the end plate on are wrong.

Thanks to all that answered and the info from Steve and Mark is what I needed. Art