MTFCA Forum

I have a Model T Ford hubcap. It is cast brass, not stamped. it is heavy. The Face is embossed :Ford (sript), MADE IN U.S.A., with the letter I for the manufacture. there no threads. It is larger in width. but the inside is thicker a ways down and that width is the same as a regular T cap. It is used with old hard grease. I will take some photos. Does anyone know the use of this hub cap?

Good morning ..... can pictures be posted on this hubcap , a couple views so we can join in

There are no threads, yet it is used and has hard old grease. I wonder how that was achieved?

On my Henrietta, the two front hubcaps are aluminium castings, with no Ford script. Interestingly, they are not the same.

Allan from down under.

Larger in width may indicate a TT hub cap.

Could be a more modern reproduction in the raw, cast and internal threads never cut.

With no threads, I would sure like to know how it stayed on a wheel to get hard grease in it? Maybe an unfinished repro used for a grease cup on the work bench? I have an ugly old T hubcap I use for that. Maybe something someone used on non-T wheel for maybe a trailer behind their T? (I am grasping at straws here!)
Back in the 1950s and '60s, a lot of people were doing brass and aluminum casting in their home shops. Almost anything is possible? I have seen quite a few cast brass hubcaps made for model Ts and other era cars back then. They were usually a bit heavier than the spun or stamped hubcaps they were made to replace. But for non-Fords with no original or repro caps available, it was what was done!

It is well used. The face is nickle plated. The rest in brass. The body has small dents and is dark. No threads. The grease is old and hard.

There is a shallow ring grove in the surface where the treads should be. Perhaps something snapped into that grove to hold the cap on. This cap is not home made. It is a production piece.

There is something strange about that hubcap. Is something broken off inside of it? It is definitely a late style hubcap, so it's not valuable.

ModelT46 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:01 pm

There is a shallow ring grove in the surface where the treads should be. Perhaps something snapped into that grove to hold the cap on. This cap is not home made. It is a production piece.

Really looks exactly as you described. Needs to be degreased to see fine details. Also notice outer grove

A Late style hub cap? Cast brass? I have seen hundreds of Model T hu b caps and have never seen one like this Please show me one of your"late style hubcaps"

There is an outer ridge about one forth of an inch wide with the slots close together. this ridge is on one side only.

Have you attempted to unscrew the bottom piece ????????? Appears to be some sort of adapter.

I do not remember where I foirstv found this cap. have had it for perhaps 60 years. It found it recently in a box of small parts that I have had for a long time and probably t his is the first time I ever examined any thing in the container.

if you put a magnet on it, I'll bet it's a broken hub inside an old hubcap

That is definitely stamped, not cast.

I think Scott is onto something......

The ridge on the lip with two notches and a catch spot is unique. The inside piece is steel and is perfectly alined. The rest is heavy brass of about 1/16 of an inch thick. It is was it is and not made uo of a regular stamped Model T Ford hub cap. the outside diameter is larger than a standerd T cap. the inside piece is perfectly made. everthing lines up perfectly. The inside is not a broken off piece but an integral part of the cap. the inside piece is smooth except for the grove. never was a part of anything else, always an on purpose part of this cast brass cap.

the catch spot and notches on the out side indicate it was snapped on. Has anyone seen or have a T cap with the letter "I" just below the U.S.A. on the cap? The enlargement of the photo shows the ridge and the two notched.

A new development. While the piece is heavy and I thought it could not be stamped, it must be, at least the face, a stamped piece, for the reverse of the script and lettering show on the inside. The catch and notch could not be stamped and must have been added during the process. What we must find out is why it was made and what was the use. I will clean it, but will not polish it.

the inside piece is solderd on, perfectly. ---hard solder. the notch area was stamped out and the two notches cut in. it ia a manufactured item.

notches and solder

I will drink to that!

I don't believe those are notches, but instead, just gaps from the cap having been burst open.

I wonder if that's not from a hub and bearing that experienced total failure, leaving part of the hub in the cap.

No and no. Those are machined slots,take a good look. This is a machined cap.

Few of you are taking a good look. This is a manufactured item.

Measure the thickness of the cap beyond the ring. I think you will find its normal hub cap thick.
That last pix I see a thin brass edge next to the iron/silver ring.

Trying to "analyze" the pieces.
There appears to be two inner rings, an outer sleeve inside a stock hub cap. However, the bass hub cap appears to have a ring around its end with some unaligned notches. I'll concede that it's soldered. If all that is true, wouldn't one expect a much simpler way to manufacture it? I am not saying it isn't just questioning it. The next question is what metal is used for the rings & sleeve and how are they soldered? Also what is the deep grove in the cap for?

Few of you are taking a good look

With due respect, Darel, it's a pretty blurry and dark picture...

now, have you put a magnet on it as requested? If you have, there has been no report on that result

As for it being "manufactured", pretty much everything that is not a rock has been manufactured...this thing, to what end, who knows?

I still think its a broken hub and your hard solder is simple ductile iron...It may have even been "made" that way for some obscure purpose by someone who's idea never got off the ground (but I doubt it)

There is nothing about this that calls to me that it is a long-lost FORD item off of a Model P.

It is obvious that it is a manufacture item .. probably an aftermarket cap for a special axle, There is nothing broken. It is all constructed and very well made. Perhaps for a semi or full floating axle.

I reported that the inner ring is steel and is soldered or weld on.

Looks like a hacksaw cut on the outside to me, just inboard of the threads. It also looks like hub snout threads, looking through the zig zag crack. The zig zag crack is odd, but sheet brass often cracks in nice straight lines. The circumfrential part of the crack may follow a thread root. I may be wrong, but from here, it looks like a Ford hubcap with the detached outer end of a hub still screwed into it. The machined look may be from bearing fragments or a rear axle spinning in the hub, or as the front wheel turned. The hub snout was probably cut off by metal debris cutting it from the inside. If I'm correct, the ring-shaped hub fragment can probably screwed out of the cap after cleaning it all up and proceeding with care

Yeah, i think you are right. I think the bearing came apart and wore it through the inside, and it broke off while removing or on the road. I suspect the cut mark was an attempt to loosen hubcap before it broke off while trying to remove.

You are really wrong. There is nothing broken. It is a factory made item all of it.

There no cracks or cuts …the slots are factory notches just above the outside ridge for the clip to engage.

Darel

With all due respect, from your previous posts for years and the photos you've provided, I know that you know a thing or two, because you've done a thing or two...and I say that with respect. However, if you will take a moment and look again at the "notches" carefully, and with an open mind, you will see quite clearly that there are threads inside. This is a hub which had a bearing failure and the ductile iron hub expanded and then broke off. Draw formed brass can and will break like this and will not show ragged or torn edges. It just is what it is, and nothing more, though it's been fun.

I'm pretty sure it's a regular T hubcap that went through a front wheel bearing/hub failure. Looking carefully at the front hub cross-section picture above indicates that it was a front wheel bearing failure, probably due to lack of grease.

You are really wrong. This a solid well made factory item No breakage well made. I just wonder were you guys are coming from. Take a good look rather than
Guessing. You just are not looking at it

There is no breakage. It is a regular cap used by an aftermarket company to create a special use cap. Yes regular caps have threads inside, when the notches were cut, the threads were exposed. Thus use of this well constructed aftermarket special adaptation will eventually be known.

There is no reason for such a thing to be made.

Darel

I half suspect that your friends who know you well are roaring with laughter at the joke you are pulling on everyone, and the responses you are receiving.

If I'm wrong, let us know what museum of super-rarities it ends up in, and exactly where they display it.

I certainly know where I'd display it...

This not a joke ..this cap is real, it is the responders that are joking?

You should have seen the one-off set of flathead Ford V8 flywheel bolts I came across once. Obviously factory made, they had regular hex heads and regular size shanks and threads, except they were necked down to about 3/4 normal diameter for about 3/16" at the head end. I figure that cheapskate Henry Ford ordered them made to save on material ....

Clean it up, soak it in penetrant, then take the "insert" out, and you will see exactly what it is. (Whatever it is) If it's what you think it is, I'd guess that Dr. Pogue is behind it.

Scott C., I wanna know more about the rare, lost Ford Model P !!

Rich

so far, only a hubcap has been found that even hints at it's existence...

and to date, historians have been oddly silent on the issue.

Like the Model T, the Model P was also built in Canada and then exported.

Early practice for compact shipping to Australia involved assembling the car loosely and then shipping to Australia where they were now correctly aligned and tightened

The assembly location is now known as Useless Loop, Western Australia and this is one of the rare fasteners:

Would agree your cap is a normal T hub cap with something threaded in and now broken off.

Can see the attempted try with a hack saw to separated the cap from the stuck inserted part, appropriate guess is a busted off front hub, as the early hubs are thin at the threaded cap end.

Your cap was a front cap, as it's still full of grease, the rear hub caps never got crammed full of grease like the front hub caps.

As for the sharp 'stepped' section, with the right angled steps, that is common fracture shape of the thin brass cap at the thread line, the separations are normally step like, see this example below:

Another Model "P" hubcap discovered, but missing its insert. These things aren't rare at all, I guess.

Once the Canada-sourced shipments passed the Equator, the natural shift in the Earth's magnetic field caused all the distorted parts to return to precisely their correct dimensions.The vehicles arrived in ready-to-run condition, except that they had to have the proper Southern Hemisphere sourced oil, water, battery electrolyte, and gasoline added. Otherwise, due to lingering traces of Northern Hemisphere gravity in the vehicle structure, the fluids would have simply floated out of their containment, making a downright hazardous mess. It took a few miles of road service for the springs to fully acclimate to the Southern gravity, too.

Suggest anyone interested in the elusive Model P should consult recent posts to "The Adventures of Kalamity Dick" in the off topics section.

Darel is one of our well-respected posters, with more T knowledge than many of us will ever have. Let's be careful here to remain respectful of him, regardless of your thoughts regarding the hubcap.

And if offense has been taken by anyone, let me be the first to apologize.

Wishing I could become acquainted personally with Mr. Leopold, for whom I have nothing but admiration and respect. From afar, he has been counsel and inspiration in my Model T adventures for 60 years. God bless !

some more photos

you can now see the notches and the clip ridge. The inside view shows the weld/or solder area and shows there is nothing broken, no loose parts. No cracks, the only change on the shell are the two notches and the ridge. You will also notice that there are no threads. The threads are covered by the weld/solder which holds in the insert. The insert can not be removed without removing the weld/solder. I cleaned out the old grease There are no broken parts or sharp edges.

What I have been seeking is, what was the use of this cap? The inner ring is perfectly round with a slight grove. It was it was made to slip over a round piece. No one has been any help and no one has come up with a possible use. All the responders has done is to make great errors as to what it is and suggest is is some else than what is pictured.

so,please help and quick the joking.

Darel

Darell,
This is what I can see from your picture:
1) it is stamped, not cast.
2) it is not soldered, there are mating threads on the inner ring and on the brass cap.
3) the cuts on the side are not machined, they are breaks in the brass.

Conclusion: You have a plain, run-of-the mill, OEM, Ford, brass hub cap on a broken hub. Nothing more, nothing special. Take a hacksaw and make 2 radial cuts opposite each other thru the inner ring, punch it out and you will see it is a broken hubcap on a broken hub.

Jeff beat me to it whilst I was annotating the photo below.

The four yellow arrows point to what are most probably threads on the inner ring, much as one would expect to find on a front hub. Assuming the inner piece is indeed threaded, why would one need to also weld or solder it into place?

The orange arrow points at a further tear in the brass. This tear has a 'stepped' pattern, similar to but smaller than the stepped break closer to the edge.

you have failed again. no tears, no threads. if it a run of the mill, please picture one just like mine.

I wonder why you and the others fail so miserably.

THEre ARE NO USUABLE THREADS. THE THREADS ARE COVERED BY THE WELDING. PLEASE, STOP THE FOOLING AROUND.

Apparently, we all have our heads up our A _ _ES - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink ! We're all just wasting the Forum's bandwidth !

I wonder why you and the others fail so miserably.

Wow! I might have to withdraw that apology! Respect is a two way street, you know.

show me the treads, show me the broken part. You can not, for the pictures that there are no inside threads showing and no broken parts, only a well machined ring. So now, help me find the use of this device.

I respect all club members. It is the reponces I do not respect, for so far, they are all in error. The above two photos show the fact that the cap is real and was used for a special purpose. no usable threads. No tears, Soliding machined ring welded in. no loose or damaged parts. There is a saying, "a picture replaces a 1000 words."

Some one early on pointed out th at the basic shell of this special hub cap was a later common on and of little value. I do have modest hub cap collection of original Model T caps, 1909-27. I happen to have two handy here in my office at work. I like to think these two have some historical interest ( and a personal value to me).

Darel, for everyone's benefit, please dig a little deeper into this mysterious hubcap.

I suggest peeling back the cut-or-broken brass at this point (blue arrow) and looking underneath...

My guess is that you will find the other side of the brass is threaded, just like any other hubcap, and the outside of the steel ring is threaded to match.

I thank you for the more detailed photos in your last post, but — and this may be just the photo — I don't see any welding or soldering. What jumps out at me is torn and rough edges on the inner ring, perhaps consistent with a broken hub giving way.

.

I know the other side is threaded. I have stated that numerous times. I have stated that it is a regular threaded hub cap that has added ring welded on, the weld covering the threads. I can not peal back the natched area, that is the part the catch hooks on to. So I will tell all once again, this is a regular thread hub cap that has a well machined ring welded on. Take a look at the photos, they indicate what I am saying. It is a well adapted regular Model T cap that as been altered to serve a new pur pose. How many time to have to state that for you all to start looking for how it was used ?

Heat it to 155 F, then dip it in Marvel Mystery Oil. Allow it to cool, then carefully unscrew the ferrous metal ring from within the brass shell. The cap can then be repaired with silver solder and rethreaded.

The “weld” I believe is caused by the friction and heat of a bearing assembly self destructing -thus melting the material, so yes, it is melted and appears welded, but not in a conventional way. If it is actually soft lead solder, I would be willing to look at it closer. It needs to come apart to tell the true story. I bet that ring is the remnants of a bearing race.

What looks to be solder is probably metal dust mixed with old grease.

NO IT IS SOLDER. I HAVE CHECKED THAT MANY TINMES. I just do not understand why you come up with these ideas when they are miles from the facts.

I do not want to destroy the originality of this special piece. Please do not continue to come up with wild ideas. Just start looking for its use.

I have a question: are the overall dimensions of the mystery hubcap the same as a "normal" hubcap ?

For my part, in the photos, it appears there are threads visible in the gap opened up along that "zig-zag" step. It looks to me like that pattern was neatly cut or filed true in a brass ring. I think that ring was added to the skirt of a stock hubcap, or perhaps made from it (?)

The soldering is what deepens the mystery, as the presence of old, dry grease indicated it was run on a hub after it was soldered.

It's entirely possible this item was made to fit up on someone's unique "invention", like as not, nothing to do with a Model T car, but probably employing parts from one in its makeup. We'll probably never learn the purpose or the story, but it's fun to speculate on !

To all who commented in jest or in earnest, pax vobiscum !
Thank you Mr. Leopold for presenting this oddment for discussion.

After a bit of star gazing and a couple of cold ones, I am now convinced that this is nothing more than a melted and shattered bearing race inside threaded portion of a broken wheel hub. You can see the worn track made by the ball bearings. You can also see the circular groove on the complete bearing race matches the other for reference. The groove is for a snap ring. That holds the ball bearings in. It’s not two rings, it’s just a snap ring groove/slot in a bearing race that cracked, melted and came apart.

They was it soldered in? Also the ring is not a bearingrace .onn

More odd ideas, not one makes any sense.

None of the suggestion would result in what is there. All I want to knows what it was made to do. None of you has made a useful sugestion.

The ferrous metal ring inside the threaded portion of the cap is probably not the remains of the bearing race. It is almost certainly the remnant of the threaded portion of the hub snout. Removing it would clarify that. I don't believe you'd get a bearing race to melt in that situation. As for solder, I don't think there is any, unless someone ran some solder in a hubcap that had a bad thread. Doing that would allow re-using the cap it by simply screwing it back onto the hub and allowing the hub threads to cut threads in the soft solder. I see nothing that indicates that this thing is anything but a hubcap that was once part of a run-to-death front hub assembley. The purpose for which it was modified is impossible to determine, because it was not modified for any purpose. Ain't no there, there, as the weird lady said.

So why not try melting the solder out then remove the piece that is screwed in. I am not seeing anything of historical importance that needs saving. Pretty darn sure no one here is going to know the back story or the why's/what's going on with it, so only can make guesses based on the provided photos.

I dont see solder in the crack/joint between the hub cap & the broken off hub. I would put it on a 3 jaw chuck & unscrew the cap.

Who cares? That hubcap is a piece of junk!

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:38 am

I dont see solder in the crack/joint between the hub cap & the broken off hub. I would put it on a 3 jaw chuck & unscrew the cap.

I don't think it would unscrew. The remains of the hub snout are way too far out-of-round.


Darel,

With all due respect, please consider for a moment that you may be incorrect in your assumptions. There are a lot of folks here who have seen a lot of stuff and they all seem to agree, as do I, what the situation is. I know in my case, there appears to be no additional words that I can offer, that you would even consider. Rather than frustrate you further, I'll just become a spectator and hope that you'll find the words you're wanting to hear.

Happy Thanksgiving!

I am correct in what I have reported. The cap is just as I have now reported.

It is frustrating isn't it, Darel. I have looked at the photographs over and over, placed them side by side to compare and still see things that I don't understand. They are good enough that they should tell us more about that cap. You have an advantage of having it to see. I don't find much to disagree with you about it. I wish we could find the true solution. I have some unsolved objects around.
I believe most of the comments were well meaning and sad that some offended you. You have been one of my favorite characters since your ads in 1960s Hemming's. I also have become fond of most of those making these assumptions and am taking away from this thread the wonder of what was done back in the day rather than the exasperation of comments made. I'm sometimes annoyed at remarks myself, usually unjustified. I hope you will soon get back to other things we enjoy hearing from you.
Respectfully,
Rich Eagle

Well, unless it’s taken apart, we will never know. Somebody is right, somebody is wrong. This is probably a case of a dog on the roof.

https://youtu.be/TFIPMJoJ-uU

This is clearly another ploy by Putin and the Oligarchs.

ThreePedalTapDancer wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:26 pm

Well, unless it’s taken apart, we will never know. Somebody is right, somebody is wrong. This is probably a case of a dog on the roof.

https://youtu.be/TFIPMJoJ-uU

I agree, unless the item is dissected, it is what it is and not what it isn't

In order to resolve the issue several things must be confirmed.
The inside of the hub appears to have some layers, so can we get some information about them
1. what is the thickness of layer 1 that appears to be a sleeve or a piece of the hub.
2. if this was from a broken hub what part could this be since it would be on the outermost edge of the hub. This is the most puzzling piece
3. need to confirm what metal this is. pictures don't help others decide. If its solder then melting it would prove it.
--
There is no point of further discussion without some hard facts

At best someone wanted to fit a t cap on an unthreaded hub. Most likely just broken stuff that didn’t get thrown away. The enlarged photos indicate that the “machining” was likely performed with a dull rock.

Andy

No, no, not broken at any time, well made or special purpose.. see other cap postings.

Please send me the dull rock. It is worth big money.

No, no Ed Martin, your far from the correct. It has no relational your suggestions.

Refer to the other discussion

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:35 pm

This is clearly another ploy by Putin and the Oligarchs.

I believe it is missing an internal circlip allowing it to be used on the recherché (look that up in your Funk & Wagnalls) rear independent suspension set-up that used the front-wheel-drive Rzeppa joints from a Cord 810 or 812. The axle bolts into the carrier and the circlip holds this brass hub cover on the end of the axle stub that sticks out of the stock Ford wood wheel hub. The bad design of the circlip holding the brass hubcap meant the only way to remove the hubcap was to break the hub. April Fools!

That being said and seeing this is now the abandoned insincere thread, which is why I waited to post this, I am in the "its just a broken hub" camp.

This is the best April fools joke ever played ! And it is only November !

It's not widely known, but Rzeppa was a chef of surpassing skill. His signature Goulash au Chevre was to die for, and many did so.

None of the above ideas, remarks and suggestions by the responers make any sense. They are like "off the wall" I probably take should this mater to a forum where there are experienced investigating mechanics and machinists. I suspects that some of you mean well. The others are just joking.

It is the responers that are acting like April fools. I know that the rest of you are serious Model T owners who want to find out all they can about Model T Fords. Sadly, few of them responded to my questions.

I expect that the further you get from a forum filled with people who have seen broken Model T hubs and shattered ball bearing races, the closer you will get to someone who will tickle your fantasy on this and let you sleep better at night. To that end, you might start with people who know the LEAST about Model T's and work back from that...that should allow you to quickly find someone who agrees with you. Perhaps a Japanese Drifting-Car forum would be a good start.

It's easy to play along, but when you insult an entire group of people many of which are experienced mechanics or machinists, or both...who in some cases have experience in metallurgy and can see what is plainly in front of them...well, it's not so fun, but just plain insulting. In all my years frequenting the Forum, there have been many thousands of people who have asked for help, and received it, and in all of those thousands, I have never before seen a questioner tell their respondents that they were full of crap which is pretty much what you're doing. You're free to not believe a single person here, but to make the effort multiple times to tell people basically, "I don't know what this is, but I'm certain that you are all wrong". That's pretty much unique in my experience.

As for solder, who knows? I could go along with you, as the hub is clearly swollen and the last owner may very well have soldered the race into the hub in an attempt to keep it stable. None of which amounts to a hill of beans. It is what it is and nothing more. You may be upset, and that certainly seems to be the case but in fact, you've been treated very gently and for good reason. Respect. Something that despite your insistence you have shown, has not been very much reciprocated as far as I can detect.

Good Luck...the rest of us who don't know a damn thing about Model T's or anything else for that matter, will simply continue living in the dark, muddling along as best as we can.

A determined and dedicated group of Japanese Youth continue to break new ground in the still-emerging sport of Auto-Drifting. Amid some controversy, these avant groups of skilled and daring sportsmen are combining highly-modified Japanese sport and compact automobiles with Japanese high-tech speaking toilets. The result beggars description. One must attend one of the sport's usually clandestine road meets to experience the spectacle. Insider tip: Bring a raincoat and goggles.

They insulted me, not I insulting them. All of the wiierd items, given after I told them what the item is, the funny ideas kept rolling in. I have wondered why . Some of the remakes were rude and way off base. I ha e now give up trying to get any sensible suggestions. There are many fine mechanics in our club, but the suggestions were way off base.

Many thanks to those of you who were nice.

Darel

one final word. I posted this on the other thread.

"There is nothing puzzling about this item I have reported what it is. It is a standared Model T hub cap. It has a machined ring threaded in. A layer of solder was apllied to hold it i n. That what it is, nothing moire or less. No puzzles at all. Just hard facts."

I reported this several times, but responders kept coming up with replies and odd remarks. Since i knew and reported to everyopne what the item is, but the odd remarks kept flowing in. This really upset me, as it would anyone who had allready knew what an item is. I regead those remarks as offending.

So please put this to rest. What was a effort to find out its use came to be a circus.

Good God, yes. R.I.P.